Braided lines

[Captain]

The one thing I've never been 100% happy about on the CBR600RR have been the brakes. Oh they bite alright, probably one of the best OEMs out there (or so they say) but after a day at the track they become spongy and loose feel.
I'm told that braided brake lines make all the difference, so I have bought and fitted some. Wow they feel great :) I haven't tried them on track yet, we'll see at WP next week.

I did a bit of reading (as is my way) so I thought I'd post up a good article, in case others are thinking about this mod. Not expensive at all, well worth doing IMO.


It's what's inside that counts

http://images.superstreetbike.com/howtos/0808_sbkp_01_z+brake_lines+cover.jpg
Though similar in construction, the aftermarket (blue) hose is significantly stronger thanks to its steel braided mesh layer (as opposed to the fabric on the stock hose).

When you pull your brake lever can you hear the cries from the stock rubber hoses as they bulge and expand? They're practically begging to be replaced with something stronger.

Hydraulics aren't just for 1964 Impala low-riders-in fact, all modern motorcycles use hydraulic braking systems. The hydraulic fluid's function is pretty simple: Liquids don't compress, but they do create pressure, and the pressurized fluid pushes the pistons against the rotor to stop the bike.

If you consider the amount of pressure and force traveling through the brake line, it starts to make sense why a reinforced hose works better.

Pressure in the brake system is essentially equal all the time, but that means the aluminum master cylinder and calipers withstand the same pressure as a rubber bit of hose. You can easily identify the weakest link in the system-it's the one not made of a metal. This is why reinforced brake lines are important, because they need to be able to withstand the huge amounts of pressure created at the master cylinder and are used to push the pistons and pads against the rotors.

When the brake line can't control expansion (stock lines tend to bulge) the rider will lose brake performance from the loss of pressure. The translation from the bulging lines to the rider's hand travels via the lever.

There is a fine line, though, between eliminating this expansion and controlling it. Too much constriction would mean that the brake lever would become a virtual on/off switch with no feel at the lever whatsoever, while too much expansion would equate to very little stopping power.

The brake fluid is contained within a tube, but there's more than meets the eye. A typical brake line is made of three parts: an inner liner that holds the fluid (usually Teflon), followed by a layer of webbed mesh (for strength) and a rubber coating for protection.

The problem with this arrangement is in the stock hose's second layer. Fabric mesh controls the strength and flexibility but simply doesn't match up to an aftermarket (steel-braided) line's construction.

Most stock lines have a fiber reinforcement that, while under normal street-riding strain, is adequate. But after some serious riding with hard braking, however, the rubber hose begins to heat up (heat transfers from the rotors to the pads and fluid) and becomes pliable-allowing for more expansion and decreased braking power.

Steel-braided lines are designed similarly to the stock hoses, but instead of fabric webbing it's steel mesh. The stiffer substance greatly reduces the brake line's tendency to bulge and expand and offers much better braking performance.

Aftermarket brake lines work better and therefore offer more safety through more powerful and consistent braking power. Furthermore, the ability to customize with different color options makes a set of hoses money well spent.

http://images.superstreetbike.com/howtos/0808_sbkp_03_z+brake_lines+banjo_bolts.jpg
Brake lines are connected to the master cylinder and calipers with fittings known as banjo bolts. Many aftermarket companies allow you to pick and choose different colors to customize your ride, but be aware that different makes and models require differently shaped fittings. Lines and fittings aren't universal, so be sure to find the correct application when ordering.

[tazkenny]

If you do a track day of any sort this is essential, otherwise your brake lever will be hitting the throttle after the first hard session.

[Johnny]

Sorry Captain, Bling item only for me and you mate, maybe someone who does, say late 30s to mid 40s at the creek, then not so much a bling item for them, but for others like you and I, bling only mate !. If your using that much brake to feel the lever get spongy, it means your too hard on the gas which results in excessive hard braking ( you have gears too) , slow down, and you will be faster ;).

edit, I forgot to mention, I have the Goodrich bling items on front and back on the R1 too :lmao:, and seriously though, havent noticed any difference !, on my old K6 1K gix, I had them on the front, and lost feel of lever if anything.

[jasonbw]

Cant agree with you there Johnny since Captains current riding style means he needs it, so its not bling. He's always getting faster, so would it make sences for him to get these, absolutely. Great move Cap. I learnt something from this, I've been told aftermarket brands all work the same (some last longer), but its self evident that the R&D is also important to make sure you have the right amount of flex. So maybe the cheaper A/M brands aren't the way to go.

[Captain]

Thanks Jason. I don't think I'm excessively hard on the brakes, in fact I think that if I was I would a little harder I probably lower my times a little. I'm only learning, but isn't the idea to brake as hard and as late as possible, at least in some of the turns?

And for anyone thinking of fitting braided lines, make sure you get the ones with the double banjo at the master cyclinder, with two separate lines extending down to the brake calipers (as opposed to the 'crossover' line over the fender). I'm led to believe that it's the ideal setup, as any air in the lines will be able to escape and won't sit in the 'high spot' on the crossover.
Unfortunately I got the wrong ones (not my fault, I was assured they were the right ones, genuine fault of the seller). I can return them if I want, but I'll try them out first.

[Nuff]

The dual lines are a pain to bleed, ask Lucas001. I would go for the crossover type, since it's much easier to bleed. As for lever going all the way to the throttle, I think using higher temp fluid would resolve the issue better. But then 675 comes stock with SS braided lines so I might be talking out of my ass.

[Zee]

Spongy at what, 50's??? lines won't fix that. They'll give you a more direct feel but they won't help with brake temp...let go of the brake.

[zRoYz]

Sorry Captain, Bling item only for me and you mate, maybe someone who does, say late 30s to mid 40s at the creek, then not so much a bling item for them, but for others like you and I, bling only mate !. If your using that much brake to feel the lever get spongy, it means your too hard on the gas which results in excessive hard braking ( you have gears too) , slow down, and you will be faster ;).

edit, I forgot to mention, I have the Goodrich bling items on front and back on the R1 too :lmao:, and seriously though, havent noticed any difference !, on my old K6 1K gix, I had them on the front, and lost feel of lever if anything.

Oh Johnny you don't get to pass go & collect a hotel, your dead wrong.

Firstly a little bit of history, braided steel lines used to be illegal for the road for one floored reason, the thought was if you crashed & got hooked up on the brake lines they wouldn't snap. It took allot of lobbying buy the line manufactures to have this changed.

Braided lines that are ADR approved will improve your brakes only when there is enough heat generated & stopping force needed to cause standard rubber lines to expand. The old way of thinking was this is only needed if your bike is used on the race track due to the heat you will generate & the extreme braking force you constantly use. The main reason most manufacturers don't fit them standard is cost, if they fit everything to your bike the best it can be the cost would be to high for the av punter.

The reason braided lines are a good idea for any modern bike & particularly sports bikes even if your bike never sees a track day is the now common fitment of a slipper clutch. The slipper clutch has decreased the effects of engine braking in a major way so nearly all the force needed to slow down your bike with one fitted is the brakes which wasn't the case not so long ago.

Even if you only ride on the road & come to some nice twisty bits you will be using your brakes in a major way & the standard likes will expand even if you don't really notice it that much but your master cylinder will need to supply just that little more fluid to compensate. Your lever may only pull in 1-2mm more but there will be a difference. At the track you are trying to simply go as fast as possible all the time from corner to corner with no speed restrictions so your loading your brakes as much as possible to bleed the speed before tip in. Your constantly doing this time & time again which will generate major heat & there isn't much cooling down time like the road with long straights so line expansion is exaggerated more.

Fluid only becomes part of the problem if it boils which doesn't happen often even using Dot4.

[Dr freedom]

& dont forget that standard lines are mainly worn down by UV light & *should* be replaced every few years.
In my case, my last bike needed new lines, it was cheaper to buy a full braided HEL set, than it was to buy the standard ones.

[KW4K4]

Someone more knowledgeable can confirm the details but I believe that running aftermarket lines on road registered bikes need to be ADR or something compliant - remember hearing stories of insurance companies not paying out because fitted lines weren't approved??

Edit: answer in zRoYz post above

[zenodamper]

...and guess wot else has an effect on braking...:lmao:

[Nuff]

...and guess wot else has an effect on braking...:lmao:

The thing between handlebars and seat?

The brake lines need to be DOT or ADR approved. The DOT approved lines will have a yellow sticker (from memory) which says DOT on them.

[zRoYz]

...and guess wot else has an effect on braking...:lmao:

My fat body in the wind :)

Lets see tyres, suspension, gravity.

[zRoYz]

The thing between handlebars and seat?

The brake lines need to be DOT or ADR approved. The DOT approved lines will have a yellow sticker (from memory) which says DOT on them.

To have braided lines on your road bike in Australia they must be ADR approved (they need a label just like your helmet) unless they come as standard fitment from factory in which case the bike has been approved.

[Nuff]

I'm not 100% sure about bikes, I know it's ok to use DOT approved braided lines in cars. I would assume the same to be true on bikes.

I'm not too worried myself, my bike came with them from factory.

[Johnny]

Cheers for clearing that up for me then guys, gladly stand corrected, and more so to have learnt from this thread.


I knew there was a reason I've them fitted :rolleyes:

[jasonbw]

...and guess wot else has an effect on braking...:lmao:

Them things down there that try to slow the round thing that goes around and they're black or grey or black and grey, or blue or other colours and they sometimes are made from metal and aren't called tampax or libra.

[Captain]

To have braided lines on your road bike in Australia they must be ADR approved (they need a label just like your helmet) unless they come as standard fitment from factory in which case the bike has been approved.

I just ordered these over the net ..... :confused1: are you saying this was wrong, very wrong?

[Johnny]

If not ADR compliant, then will be the reason insurance company looks for to knock it back.

p.s Captain, mate my previous post was not aimed directly at you and I hope you took no offence to it, but was at us all including myself, to be honest with you, I havent noticed any difference, both on the track and on the road. Sure there may be some logical answer in theory, but in practise, sorry, I fail to see the difference, I like the feel from the lever, and on the gix, it was gone with the briadeds, on the R1 feel hasnt changed.
Money couldve been spent elsewhere, as on training, ridetime or further with suspension, which inturn means smoother, which = slower but faster, rather than rely on brakes the last minute.

[zRoYz]

I just ordered these over the net ..... :confused1: are you saying this was wrong, very wrong?

If there from OS then there not ADR approved even if exact same lines sold here.

I bought my HEL lines for my track bike OS as ADR not needed but for my road bike bought from HEL distributor here so has ADR compliance label. You would have to be very unlucky to be picked up on it but these days I've decided to give the powers to be nothing they can ping me for as they always seem to look for something.

[Captain]

Thanks zRoYz.

Johnny no problem at all. I was thinking how good it was to meet that road ride, easy to misunderstand online sometimes but all good now :ayyy:
The brakes feel great with the new lines, but the real test will be on track. Other RR riders claim this has solved the problem 100%, plus I have dot5 fluid (although I doubt that was the problem). I'll let you know how it goes at WP.

[jasonbw]

Just to be exact on a point Cap, when you wrote above DOT5, do you mean DOT5 or DOT5.1

DOT5.1 is similar to DOT4 and either are perfect for the track.
DOT5 (5.0) isn't necessary for the track and really needs special treatment when working with it (flushing out all the traces of old fluid).

I'd guess you got 5.1, just making sure.

[Dr freedom]

Imo unless you have ABS, DOT4 is enough.. but personally, for a few bucks more, I use 5.1

Do many of you folks use RBF600 for your track bikes?

[Johnny]

Captain, glad to hear it mate, your right on two counts mate, was great to meet you and look forward to the next time ;), and spot on about being misunderstood online, were as not the case with face to face :ayyy:

JBW, one of them two is a different type of fluid, ie synthetic or non synthetic ? am I wrong, just rings a bell somehow :o

[Captain]

I think it was 5.1 :confused1:
The last time Honda looked at it, they replaced the fluid with the RBF600 (which made no difference BTW, so the problem isn't brake fluid boiling), and I could have sworn that my mechanic showed me the same bottle when he fitted the braided lines, but then he mentioned 5 or 5.1 .... (for all I know, RBF600 is 5.1, a little confused now)
Anyhow I had the work done by Ron at Flywheels, I'm sure he put the right stuff in.

[R_u_1_e_r]

Captain, glad to hear it mate, your right on two counts mate, was great to meet you and look forward to the next time ;), and spot on about being misunderstood online, were as not the case with face to face :ayyy:

JBW, one of them two is a different type of fluid, ie synthetic or non synthetic ? am I wrong, just rings a bell somehow :o

DOT5 is silicone based.

[Johnny]

DOT5 is silicone based.
Thanx for that, I knew there was something different about them (only use dot 4 here), so how did I come up with synthetic then ? :dohsmiley: :lmao:

[dazzler]

also i believe dot 5.1 wont eat through ya paint like dot 4 does

[R_u_1_e_r]

I know 5 wont but i think 5.1 will just like the others.

[Yarnie]

Goodridge are the only ADR approved here in NSW,




If there from OS then there not ADR approved even if exact same lines sold here.

I bought my HEL lines for my track bike OS as ADR not needed but for my road bike bought from HEL distributor here so has ADR compliance label. You would have to be very unlucky to be picked up on it but these days I've decided to give the powers to be nothing they can ping me for as they always seem to look for something.

[zRoYz]

Goodridge are the only ADR approved here in NSW,

Wrong HEL are also, ADR is Australia wide, my HEL lines bought from QLD direct who are the distributor are ADR approved & have the label to prove it.

For lines to be ADR compliant they must display the relevant FMVSS approval code. Only Hel Australia are able to comply with the Australian government requirements to include this code on their lines and they only supply kits to authorised Australian based resellers.

[Turtle]

I always fit braided lines to my bikes, just for the better feel they give, also when riding Hard they don't get "Spongey", like the standard lines do because they don't expand once the fluid gets hot....i also use Motul 5.1 fluid as it does destroy your paint when you spill it..i now use the HEL lines, which i have just just fitted to the new bike, i have Galfers on the trakky, but didn't know the Hel lines were ADR approved......are they ????

[zRoYz]

For lines to be ADR compliant they must display the relevant FMVSS approval code, which is a plastic label ring you don't remove from lines.

[Turtle]

For lines to be ADR compliant they must display the relevant FMVSS approval code, which is a plastic label ring you don't remove from lines.

I think the ring on my lines is just yellow and has "Hel" on it ??

[spotcom]

I've just today had my brakes upgraded. Last time I was on the track, I wasn't totally happy with them. The 848 already has braided lines as standard, although they are the type that have the single line down to one rotor, then loop over to the other rotor.

Anyhow, I talked with a few people that ride & race them, and they advised that the best upgrade I could do would be to change the pads over to sintered pads. As said, I've just done this, and will be testing them out on the 13th (a week's worth of riding before hand to "bed them in"). I had the fluid changed at the same time - Dot 5.1 has been installed.

One worrying thing - one of the little clips that hold the pad pins in place was missing! And another was loose - you could pull it out with your fingers. They've replaced all of these, and have lock-wired them in place. The feeling is that the heat from a number of track days must have weakened them.

It's another thing I'm going to add to my pre-trackday checklist!

Anyhow - here's a couple of articles I found on sintered pads and doing up your brakes:

http://www.dp-brakes.com/dp.php?load=faqs

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/disc-brake-tech-3437.html

[SIX36]

What are the stock pads on the 848 i would have assumed them sintered already?

[spotcom]

You're right - I just checked. I'll have to ask them more questions about the pad upgrade they've done.

Can anyone shed some light on this? There's obviously a range in quality and stopping power - I was told that I've been given a more track-based pad than the OEMs, but how would I tell (apart from finding out in anger next weekend)?

[Captain]

That's what forums are for spotcom. I would search through the ducati ones, worldwide there must be riders who have tried them and can give feedback.

[Marcus]

I felt your brakes, mainly because of the asv lever you have as I have a similar master cylinder on the gsxr.

Yours feels good and then I seen the lines, however all the bikes I have ridden with braided lines I hate (inc my r6) as I like a bit of feel/modulation... Seems you dont get that with braid unless your on it no matter the bike/MC type

[Jake]

Seems to be that braided lines are really great for warping discs too...anecdotally anyway. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

[Dr freedom]

I think the ring on my lines is just yellow and has "Hel" on it ??
Thats what mine had as well.. its not the compliance ring Gordy mentioned, its just a little HEL advertising
Mind you, my bike was assessed by the insurance company, it had the HEL lines, other bling & go fast bits, my lid is one I bought from the US last year, so it doesnt have the silver Aust Standards sticker either.. the assessor nor the insurance company said a thing .. they could not have paid me out fast enough either:lmao:

Dont take this as the way to do it though.. I was lucky that the assessor was a car assessor & only did a bike twice a year.

[Cedric]

Braided lines made a huge difference on my trackie, one finger stopping and all that.. but they seem to have too much bite now - something I took a little time to get used to...

I wouldn't have though they contribute to warped discs IMHO, unless after the mod you're using your brakes a lot more, perhaps due to increased speed/confidence thereby heating up and warping your discs... Ordinary usage shouldn't affect.. but hey I'm no expert.

[Captain]

FWIW, the brakes help up perfectly at Wakefield yesterday. They felt good, they didn't fade one little bit, so I'm happy about that.

But things are never that simple, are they? I've had advice re my riding, and as a result I'm not braking as much (or as hard) as I used to, and carrying more speed into the turns - the result being that there isn't as much load on the brakes and/or lines as before. So I don't really have an answer yet .... we'll see this Saturday at EC, I guess http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/504_shrugging.gif