GPR or Ohlins? [Archive]

Matchstick01

27-11-2008, 04:00 PM

Hey guys,

Just wondering what your opinions are on which way to go with getting a steering damper for my 2004 R6.

Generally I will be using the bike for being out in the mountains, and hopefully a couple of trackdays a month. I want to get a damper but am stuck between the GPR V1, the GPR V4 or an Ohlins. Price isn't really an issue, I would rather get whats best for my bike which is why I automatically assumed to go with Ohlins, however I have had a few people raving about the GPRs. Even with the GPR's, I can get the V4 which is the newer design, or the V1 which is suppost to be simpler and easier to use. I can't decide between the three, what do you guys think, and why?

Cheers

Paul.

Kat00

27-11-2008, 04:06 PM

You could always PM Zeno http://nswroadandtrackbikes.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45

Or

Birdman45 http://www.doinbikes.com.au/matris_dampers.htm

Get their take on things......some good experience right there.

SIX36

27-11-2008, 04:08 PM

For the price i'd go the GPR V4

Yarnie

27-11-2008, 04:25 PM

I prefer ohlins :ayyy:

clarkey

27-11-2008, 04:29 PM

I have both , i like the gpr as its easier to use on the fly and was cheaper , Doesnt have the bling factor though :ayyy:

DanFX

27-11-2008, 04:32 PM

I use the OHLINS on my R6, i've never used a GPR though......
Performs great and looks trick ;)

Jonny DeWog

27-11-2008, 05:46 PM

I have Ohlins on the Duc and it's great: very 'unobtrusive' in normal riding. It is speed-sensitive, as in it doesn't feel like it compromises the steering at all, yet dampens all bar-wiggling very effectively (Far better than the more expensive Bitubo unit on my other bike)

jdw

Johnny

27-11-2008, 06:07 PM

Ofcourse you could always get your suspension right, and you wont be needing a damper, dampener, damnpaper .. :p

Kat00

27-11-2008, 06:17 PM

Ofcourse you could always get your suspension right, and you wont be needing a damper, dampener, damnpaper .. :p

You can have your suspension spot on and given the right circumstances they will slap. I'll bet even Zeno has got a Damper on his bike. Dampers are an insurance policy.

Johnny

27-11-2008, 06:20 PM

True I guess, I got the stock R1 one on mine, it has had the oil weight raised to about the 10 weight mark ( mixed up some 5w and 10w) but thats it. Along with Zenos handy work on suspension, Ive had no need for a brand name to add to my list of mods/bling..

zenodamper

27-11-2008, 07:13 PM

You can have your suspension spot on and given the right circumstances they will slap. I'll bet even Zeno has got a Damper on his bike. Dampers are an insurance policy.

Nope, I mean this is a trick comment/question innit Mick!?

No, I don't use a steering damper - and anyone whom knows 2003/4 636's will know how slap-happy they are - indeed, famous for it - double indeed, was the reason I bought it in 1st place - cos it slaps as stock! ...and has the harshest rear-end known to man - now it don't slap, has no damper and is firm in the arse, but not spiky harsh!

So, either I am a crazy old fool, or not, hmm.... :confused1:

Jonny DeWog

27-11-2008, 07:34 PM

You can have your suspension spot on and given the right circumstances they will slap. ..... Dampers are an insurance policy.

+1

Steering Dampers are no substitute for poor suspension set-up. And I agree with Zeno, that a properly sorted bike will rarely (if ever) be in need of one.

But....... if that day ever comes....... even the best sorted bike can get the bars-a-waggin' (just look at GP bikes)

jdw

Captain

27-11-2008, 07:41 PM

I think it depends on the bike's geometry; I'm with Kat00, you can have your suspension just right and still suffer from it (the 2008 ZX10R is a good example of this). But I don't have Zeno's experience, I could be missing something.

Steering dampers (http://nswroadandtrackbikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8260)

zenodamper

27-11-2008, 07:50 PM

2008 ZX10R has at least 5 contributing problems that cause bars to go light and finally move side to side - 95% of which can be sorted out, the remaining 5%, well, i only wish they would put the design right; but nobody listens...... :lmao:

SLAC

27-11-2008, 09:05 PM

+1

Steering Dampers are no substitute for poor suspension set-up. And I agree with Zeno, that a properly sorted bike will rarely (if ever) be in need of one.

But....... if that day ever comes....... even the best sorted bike can get the bars-a-waggin' (just look at GP bikes)

jdw

So that contradicts the comments stated? :confused1:

Nearly all SBK, Aus SBK, GP, SS etc race bikes have them, and i bet that they are set up pretty well... So i guess it all depends if you like your bike to slap a little and or have it set up a bit loose... Im no suspension techo but there is always a reason for the necessity for a damper that is put on a bike..

Jonny DeWog

27-11-2008, 10:15 PM

So that contradicts the comments stated? :confused1:

..

Err...no.

The +1 meant I was agreeing with Kat00 (in having a steering damper as an "insurance policy"). Steering dampers are really a "last line of defence" - as it were - when all else in the suspension can't cope.

The point was that, ideally, they shouldn't be relied upon to make your bike handle well, but rather, to reduce the disastrous effects 'if' and 'when' a tankslapper might occur.

jdw

jasonbw

27-11-2008, 10:23 PM

Why are some people thinking its disasterous for the bike to slap? It *really* isn't a bad thing that it does it, remember the pre-perimiter frames, no slap was downright dangerous, it was the bikes way of dissapating excess energy, much prefer a slap in the head than a kick in the arse.
P.s. If you're wondering why it's no big deal, you might be trying to fight the slapping bars... in future just get back on the gas and relax your death grip on the bars. Do that quick enough and you can steer the bike away from that wall your headed towards :D

Kat00

27-11-2008, 10:37 PM

It depends on where and severity if it occurs. I couldn't care less how good my bike is set up, I was on the receiving end of one on a K4 thou, I was overtaking at the time and it happened alongside the offside mirror of the car I was overtaking..........never again.

jasonbw

27-11-2008, 10:50 PM

:D OK, life and death, that's fair, you know a damper wont make them "never again" though right? The CBR of mine slapped big time each lap on its first hard outing at OP (turned out it was me pulling myself forward on the bars each time) but prior to realising that and stopping it, that CBR's damper could have broken my hand if I tried to stop it. They wont completely go away.

Kat00

27-11-2008, 10:56 PM

Semantics :lmao:

On one hand well soughted suspension stops them......on the other hand they never go away :lmao:

I'm happy with my suspension and I'm happier having an Ohlins turned out about 6 clicks. :ayyy:

On a side note, before Zeno touched my current bike it used to shake its head mildly under full throttle with the stock Damper with 15W oil, very predictably and perversely enjoyable, Haven't felt it since Zeno has worked his magic, feels like it wants to at times but its rock steady.

Mr.Ed

28-11-2008, 03:07 AM

I bit off topic (not!) but when I was shopping for a Steering damper I found heaps of ppl complaining that their GPR V1 leaked. A LOT!! So I'd steer away from those if I were you. The V4 seems to have that well under control and it's much more compact and user friendly.

Captain

28-11-2008, 07:15 AM

As I see it, correct suspension setup will help but given the short wheelbase and sharp steering geometry of modern sportbikes then the tankslapper can still occur. Hence why you see them on all racing bikes, which we could assume know a thing or two about suspension.

BTW, as I understand it there is some misinformation about what the rider can do. In a violent case, where your hands are kicked off the bars you probably can't do much, and even 'taking your hands off' to let the bike settle on it's own might be pointless. Yes we've seen many times the rider get thrown off, and then the bike settles and continues on its own and this is used as an example of what the rider should have done ... nothing.
But there's a difference; once the rider is off, the suspension unloads and the geometry / dynamics / weight distribution are different, and that's why the bike settles down.

zenodamper

28-11-2008, 09:34 AM

As I see it, correct suspension setup will help; but given the short wheelbase and sharp steering geometry of modern sportbikes then the tankslapper can still occur.

aha (so, it is all in the geometry then)

Hence why you see them on all racing bikes, which we could assume know a thing or two about suspension.

Tada, Logic 101? - I knew there was an easy way of constructing it out there!

I am very sorry, and it would be grand to address some of these very bating comments which I have seen over the last 2 pages (Monsieur Slac incl.), but I just don't have time today....

...suffice (I hope) as to add, that it would all make sense if there weren't 2 scenarios being lumped into the one reason! (good science/bad science - where's House?)

I suppose I could have not said anything and it might have all been solved - you know, answer to the meaning of life and the universe etc... how do forums do that so well?

However, and on a final note: why is this GPR vs. Öhlin's, why is Scott's (an Öhlin's product) not being considered - as you can be sure that it is better made!

...gotta run...

Underground

28-11-2008, 11:53 AM

Let us not denigrate the need for these highly-prized bling bringing implements. Nor shall we loathe the application of rim stickers, or the gentle petting of warm puppies.

Captain

28-11-2008, 01:35 PM

Oh god, now there's two of them ...

Matchstick01

28-11-2008, 02:08 PM

Wow, I didn't expect so many replies to this question, I think maybe I should rephrase and bring out my whole situation.

Earlier this year, I had a bad accident and broke my arm quite badly, and at the moment I have very little muscle and cannot handle quick changing movement with my right arm. This is my first "big bike" and I am expecting that headshakes will happen. I have had them on my 250 (up to proper tank slapppers) and it has never caused me any greif. However, due to the fact that my right arm may not handle the rapid and changing movement of a tankslapper. In the even of one I am worried that I may have no chaice but to let go of the handle bar/throttle which I know is the worst thing to do.

I do want to get a damper for this reason, money is an issue, but I do not mind spending the extra money if I am getting a better product. The GPR's will cost me a little less (theres not a lot in it) and I have had a few people raving about them saying they are better then ohlins, however Ohlins does have a great reputaion behind it. Thus why am asking the question here, as I know people here are known for doing lots of track days and spending lots of time in the mountains. What is your experiences with one, the other or both, is the gpr really better then the ohlins for my sort of riding. Is the ohlins worth spending a bit of extra cash on when i'm already spening a lot of money and I don't mind going that bit further? I have an ohlins in stock at work for my bike, i can grab it at any time (when I have the cash there for it) so it is easy but it is a little more expensive.

Marcus

28-11-2008, 02:17 PM

hmm, $500 to $900 on a steering damper and it only dampens side movement of the bars...

Its really an old school thought that "stiffer is better".

smiddyr6 has an 03 r6 and chances are, he rides a fair whack harder then you will ever ride on bumpy roads and he does NOT use a damper.

I do have one on my bike, but the only reason its there is for when the front wheel lands off center to the rear. I.e wheelies. Its a scotts and its set to 1/8th of a turn off the softest setting.

Does the 05 model come with one stock? How about the 06? What about the 08?

I have an 06 R6 for the track which has more aggressive geometry and power then the early models, you want my opinion, spend the $$ on suspension- its a better bang for buck and it wont slap.

Captain, there is a lot of misinformation and misconceptions out there in the MC world. There is a lot of good stuff you can read, but the best stuff is learnt for yourself.

So, whats the difference between a tank slap and a head shake?

Edit, if you have an injury that bad, maybe you should refrain from riding "hard". Avoidance is better then cure (in your case)

Matchstick01

28-11-2008, 02:25 PM

My understanding, could be wrong terminolgy i'm using, is that headshake is just a minor thing where coming down from a wheelie or whatever cuases it it shakes a bit left to right and generally corrects itself, as opposed to a tank slapper where its so bad its going from lock to lock violantly.

I'm not asking about general use of them, I am asking for ME personally in MY situation with my arm. Suspension set up will help, I know this, but in the event of headshake minor or major, IF it happens, and WHEN it happens, I would rather spend a few hundred dollars now and hopefully prevent myself from binning it becuase I cannot physically handle it, then risk having to spend thousands of dollars repairing panels and brackets and whatever else happens after that.

Edit, at the moment I am not riding "hard" my bike is yet to break the 7000rpm mark or the 80km/h. As I feel more confident I will push harder most likely at the track, but this is meant as a precaustionary measure, as I mentioned, I would rather spend the money now and be a little safer in case I am in the situation where I think I am up to handling it but am not, rather then finding out afterwards. It may never come in useful, but I would rather have it in case it does.

Captain

28-11-2008, 03:57 PM

Captain, there is a lot of misinformation and misconceptions out there in the MC world. There is a lot of good stuff you can read, but the best stuff is learnt for yourself.

No doubt. This is why I'm usually careful with my statements, I often use terms such as 'in my opinion' or 'to the best of my knowledge', typically when I have read / heard something but I'm not 100% sure of its' accuracy. I try to encourage a healthy debate, which is the way we all learn.
I also post up technical articles from time to time - such as the one on this very topic: Steering dampers (http://nswroadandtrackbikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8260)
So I might ocassionally talk out of my arse, and other times I will not have it quite right but I usually try to do some research first.

..... but I'm rambling on now, please ignore.

Re 'the best stuff is learn for yourself' - yes, that's true, but life is too short (and too painful) to learn everything through experience.

zenodamper

28-11-2008, 04:28 PM

Sometimes it can feed debate, and other times will cause 'clamming up' - perhaps is more like the last phrase: 'the best stuff is learn for yourself' - i.e. lots of stuff to know doesn't just get grabbed off a shelf, per se... We might say life is too short; but that neither makes it easy nor acceptable to treat it like a supermarket shelf - then again, I grew up with the Chinese classics; you know XYZ was so dedicated that they studied by 'glow-worms' into the night until their eyes ached.... etc... perhaps it pays to remember that things can only be truly beautiful with "contrast" - as the human animal has no concept of comprehension without some antonym or other... one cannot properly love or taste or appreciate without having lost something, tasted something bad, or seen something ruined... Life is dualism!

Matchstick01

28-11-2008, 04:29 PM

Steering dampers (http://nswroadandtrackbikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8260)

That was a bloody good read.

Thanks Captain.

Turtle

28-11-2008, 05:22 PM

Buy the best Rotary Damper.............The SCOTTS made by Ohlins and i think now labelled as Ohlins.........maybe they are both sold now...not sure........SCOTTS have a high and low speed setting so it can be loosened right off so the bike doesn't feel as though it has a Damper on it..GPR only have one setting which stiffens the steering up like normal Dampers..........I'd get a rotary over a Ram type.........All Ram Types are slightly biased to one side

Marcus

28-11-2008, 05:29 PM

I try to encourage a healthy debate, which is the way we all learn.
Well yes, if your priority is learning to debate, read etc. Im not saying its bad to debate, but we arnt discussing a theory that is 100% acedemic. There is only so much theory to a steering damper. Till you get to the point of going out and trying a steering damper that is too heavy, one that is really light and none at all.

I also post up technical articles from time to time - such as the one on this very topic: Steering dampers (http://nswroadandtrackbikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8260)
So I might ocassionally talk out of my arse, and other times I will not have it quite right but I usually try to do some research first.
Thats cool, nothing wrong with that. But you have to take it for what its worth. They are opinions which is one thing, but most "articals" are part of a magazine. There is probably an ounce of tech in it and the rest is marketing. I did this for a living for 5 years. There is only so much you can write until it becomes too much info to understand and a fine line between blatent marketing.

Re 'the best stuff is learn for yourself' - yes, that's true, but life is too short (and too painful) to learn everything through experience.
I dont agree with this. Thats just like that saying you dont know how fast you can go until you crash. Its a fallacy and even professional riders dont go by that anymore. Look at haga, most of his crashes are front end related, he will go back to pit, make some changes and run it harder. He also does this in races!

There is a certain amount one can learn from reading, practicing and being taught. Bikes and riding is a combination of all of these.

If you read into stuff too much or listen too much to people, your view of "whats right/good/ok" is skewed. Often by myths and conceptions that are BS.

To give you an example, this whole conception of knee dragging you have. You ask turtle and he doesnt like it, ask one of his mates alex and he's the complete opposite.

You cant pick and choose what suits you best or what you like, you have to get out there and try it- which will also make you understand it a bit better.

Ever since I starting riding bikes, I have been told not to be afraid to try things. Just dont crash trying to "make something work".

Captain

28-11-2008, 05:48 PM

My own opinion is that I like learn as much as I can - we reach the stars by standing on the shoulders of giants, after all; I listen to all riders, and over time you learn through experience who is most likely to give good advice and who you should probably ignore. But just because I have an open mind, this does not mean that my view of reality is 'skewed' by what others say.

You improve thorugh practice, I am sure you agree. This is true of movements (eg riding a bike) as it is in the way you use your mind (eg a manager making decisions). Because I read a lot, and listen to many opinions, I have developed some reasonably good skills at determining what is truth and what isn't, who has an interest at stake and who is simply a fool.
I am the first to admit that at times there is too much information .... or rather, that it takes a while to see the clear (and often simple) picture. Often someone will simply point it out to me, but what appears simple can still take a lot to drag out. Other times you go around full circle, which might appear pointless to someone 'in the know' but can be essential to those who are learning.

Of course people will have different opinions; yes Turtle doesn't like to drag his knee and Alex does. Others only just 'touch' the road to gauge how far they are leaning. What are you trying to say? That this should confuse me? That I can only handle ONE point of view? C'mon on mate, I'm not 18 ...

Johnny

28-11-2008, 06:03 PM

Marcus

28-11-2008, 06:41 PM

...

Well, you said that you spoke with turtle re: knee dragging and he said it felt like his knee was going to get ripped off (or something to that effect)...

... and how your picking your knee up because of this.

Wouldnt you say now your view of it is skewed even though it may be subconcious??

Dont get me wrong, im not giving you a hard time but sometimes you have to be thrown in the pool to learn to swim.

Captain

28-11-2008, 06:55 PM

Good point Marcus ... I had forgotten that. Yes, well, maybe my system is not perfect ...... :dohsmiley:

Kat00

28-11-2008, 07:39 PM

Best suggestion would be to look up what causes a "slapper" ( by the way, I doubt many know what an actual slapper is or even experienced it, a "slapper" is not nice, and a head shake, is well, a head shake, two very different things !). So once knowing what cause a "slapper" you'll understand that correct suspension and rider input is what will make the difference.

If you have ever had a genuine stop to stop slapper, as opposed to perversely enjoyable head shake, your damper will be wound up a couple of clicks more than necessary I can assure you ;)

Captain

28-11-2008, 07:46 PM

It does sound pretty scary. I'm told that the electronic damper would prevent this ever happening on the 600RR .... best not to think about it too much.

Kat00

28-11-2008, 07:59 PM

Best too think about it Cappy.
Well soughted suspension decreases the chances of a full blown slapper. Some say eliminate.
A damper will only further insure against its occurrence.
If there are any underlying causes its best to get them addressed because.......
A damper without proper suspension setup only masks the problem.

A few of us here here rode with a guy called Sin at PI two years ago. He was complaining about head shake all day. On a 03 R6 without a damper during the last session of the day he got a full blown slapper on T3 WOT.
He ended up in a dry dam behind the wall and was helicopted out.......not pretty.
Would a damper saved him? Who knows......But its highly unlikely that would have occurred with well soughted suspension.

I saw Sin at EC a few weeks ago, for those that know him I timed him at 1:42's.......he has come a long way.

tempest161

29-11-2008, 11:54 AM

My last outing at the island saw a similar outcome (apart from the helo option) out of southern loop and developed a full slapper, not my most fun memory running straight off in t3. once i changed my dacks and made some suspension changes, no more slapper issues. i think kat00 is spot on in get the suspenders sorted which is the underlying problem.
Sin is a good rider, we've shared garages at race meets several times. those times set on his new bike with no work done to it and minimal time on the bike.