old rd today. 9/11

[Johnny]

Upon return from the Rats putty Loop today, the old rd was closed between Mt White and Sommersby ( Peats ridge turnoff).
Workmen come up and told us that there was a major accident envolving three bikes, were a woman lost her legs :(
Dont know the full story ( perhaps someone can confirm, and fill in the blanks) or who or how many envolved, but, would like to pass on sympathies.
So sorry to hear and thoughts are with you..

Take care out there guys.

[jasonbw]

Damn, we're sitting here having a top Sunday arvo and someone is out there in shitloads of pain just from going for a nice ride, hope your info is wrong but I suspect it isnt :(

[HYPE]

apparently head-on between two bikes and possible third involved, woman may possibly have been either rider/pillion.

also a mass of cops in cars, on trailies and pol-air hunting for occupants of a discarded van

busy day

[triumph]

from what i was told by police there was 3 involved . and a girl had lost her leg . it happen on a sharp bend about 5 ks from the rta weight brige . looks like one of the bikes cross to the wrong side of the road .

[motoplast]

Jen, Bundy & I went for a ride up to Catherine Bay via the old road, we left R.W. a couple of minutes after some cruisers left which were involved in that acco'. We went round the accident scene without stopping as there were already 6 or so people there trying to direct traffic, render assistance etc. Didn't see it happen, but apparently a sports bike with a female pillion was heading south and the two cruisers (Harley's I think?) were heading North, the south bound sports bike crossed to the wrong side of the road (cut the corner) and speared into one of the cruisers which in turn bought the other one down. I honestly had thought that the woman was dead by "bleeding out" from her severed limb, just heard she is critical, (still alive but, which is a good thing) One rider was up against the rock wall holding his head & shaken up, otherwise looked ok. One of the cruiser riders was laying on the ground in a bloody mess & semi comatosed. Believe me, like any vehicle accident, it was not a pleasant sight. I hope they all come out of it ok, somehow I don't think they will be able to save that ladies leg, only a thread of her clothing was hanging on to it.:(.

Will have to wait till tomorrows paper comes out. The accident happenned around 1130 and the road was closed when I came past down the Freeway at about 1715.

Cheers,
Tex & Bundy

[Captain]

Fark that terrible, a day out riding ending in this horrible way. We have racetracks for racing, I must be getting old but I'm almost beginning to agree with Police and the government re slowing people down.
Sorry, I'm just saddened by the news.

[WHITTNEY]

whittney came thru there at 6pm after a detour from the rest of the guys just after kulnara and all was clear except for a red hwypatrol sitting in a blind corner near to where u describe the accident as happenning! i shit as it was a 60 zone and i was right up it doin ... but to my surprise he did nothing so maybe he was patrolling for something else ????

[Soloarm]

Hey Guys,

For those who read this thread pass it on to those who might not............

I am an amputee and only involved with Motorcycling as a pillion because I have a limb missing and don't see me riding no matter how modified the bike to be the safest on the road but...................

Are you guys aware that the average claim for a motorcycle accident is around 5 million in rehab and thats not for the riders but the pillions.........mostly female. Those stats came from I meeting I had with an insurance company a few weeks ago.

I trust Tex with my life everytime I get on his bike, he may be known to ride fast but he always leaves room for the unexpected.......I have done alot of km's on his bike and love it but I am more than aware if it goes horrible wrong him and Bundy would most probably walk away and as satistics show I won't.

So when someone is on the back of your bike take extra care, cause you may be left standing to explain what happened.

My heart goes out to this girl, what happened to her today is nothing compared to what she is to face in the future. And if anybody on RATS knows her or her family I am always around for coffee.

[WHITTNEY]

any news on the guy riding the zx10 that crashed into the wall on our ride today ?
if someone can let me kno who it was and can put me intouch with him i may kno someone with some spares for that bike if it wasnt insured that is ! ????

[Captain]

Not to veer off topic, but do you happen to know why it is the pillion that seems to come off so much worse?

[Soloarm]

Not to veer off topic, but do you happen to know why it is the pillion that seems to come off so much worse?

The rider is able to brace against handle bars, grip tank with legs, on most bikes pillions legs are wrapped around rider exposed to elements.

On sports bikes pillion up high so in extreme braking get pitched over top......... or tossed off back

No warning of whats happening, you have no control, you can make no decisions.

[stetto]

the date is 9/11... scary

[Soloarm]

They also said in my meeting that the reason that prices are soaring for CTP on over 1000cc bikes is because of the extreme costs associated with pillion injury. The insurance company I met with openly told me they would prefer that I didn't offer CTP'S to bikes over 1000cc and will now be making sure that they are way dearer than other insurance companies to discourage riders of 1000ccs from utilising their CTP's

[hoffy]

Fark, thats terrible news..

I was up there earlier and a young fella on a GS500 nearly crossed fully into my lane running wide..it happens so easy.

There are certainly too few skills on display up there most weekends. :(

[Irena]

I was there as well, its a tragic news...........:(

[mrgoof]

Very bad news. I come back past the turn off there this arvo and there was a couple of guys on bikes that told me there was an accident.

[Alex.]

Terrible day on the roads today. Hope all recover as best as possible.

[SIX36]

We also past through the old rd heading up the putty with JDW and a few of the Ducati guys cops were there in drones at about 10am.
Sorry to hear about the injured today.

[triumph]

i was told by a copper at the scene that there was a hyosung and a aprilia involed in the accident . i did see what looked like a harley laying in the middle of the road .

[heretic]

Damn thats no good. Ride safe everyone, take care.

[blade runner]

News
Woman loses leg in bike crash
newsLocal News10 Nov 08 @ 10:00am by Alison Buckland
A woman had one leg amputated after a multiple motorcycle crash on the Pacific Highway near Mount White yesterday.

About noon three motorcycles collided leaving two people with serious injuries and another two with minor injuries.

The woman who suffered the devastating leg injury and another rider with major spinal and chest injuries were airlifted to Royal North Shore Hospital.

Both are in a serious condition.

The other two were taken to Gosford Hospital with minor injuries including cuts and bruises.

It is believed the woman was a pillion passenger on one of the bikes.

Sources said it was a head-on collision but it it not known if two bikes hit the third, or one ran into the other two.

Police investigations are continuing.


I hope all involve heal quickly.

[Dr freedom]

3 bikes fck me!!! Thats just terrible.. no doubt the coppers will be on full alert & eye off every bike they can..

[Marcus]

What a shame, hope they recover the best they can.

If both of those bikes were doing 60klms, the impact may as well be with something that is solid doing 100klms. More if they are 100% lined up.

I try not to ride that road on the weekends, the amount of retards up there crossing double lines scares the fuck out of me.

Nor do I have any pillion pegs fitted.

[Captain]

I gotta agree with you Marcus, I hardly ever take that road on weekends, a few months back some dickhead of a rider ran wide out of a turn, right into my lane (going the other way), he missed me by inches.

[bargain]

Sickening news... Feel so sorry for her especially being a pillion, no control.

Such an unfortunate way to remind others to really take care.

[spanky158]

Horrible news. Condolences to those impacted, such a horrible outcome. Take it easy up there guys, ride safe. I am with Marcus and Captain, it's not a nice rd on the weekends unless you go early. Tend to agree with you somewhat captain about slowing down, although if you ride within the rd and within your limits, we should have no issues. The road is not a racetrack, you can still go fast in your own lane, if you want to jeopardize ur own safety, go for it, but don't take the control away from others out for a Sunday ride by taking their piece of rd.

[HYPE]

a message from a 'Shortie' who is a friend of one of the injured riders


Hey guys just a update, i met with my mate in hospital tonight he was travelling north when a guys in his 50's with a female pillion came onto his side of the road and hit him head on as he was leaning into a corner.

He had another mate riding with him on his L's who was also hit by the guy and my mate had to pick his bike up off him. My mate had a metal plate in his forearm and a pin in his pinky finger, he also had dislocated wrist which was put back into place in surgery.

As far as i know the story of the leg being amputated on site is not true and they bandaged her up and was airlifted with my mate. The rider of the other bike has a few scratches as far a i know, and i think he is a tourist aswell.

so as it turns out the cruiser crossed the path of the sportsbike and learner who were heading North.

[hoffy]

I must say, it is not a place for a learner or p-plater who wants to *test* their riding ability..

I have banned my younger brother from going up there, he is on his P's, exactly for that reason.

Best wishes to all involved and I hope everyone survives..

[LOAFIE]

A speedy recovery to the riders involved, i hate the old road and the assholes that use it as a race track.
I hope Road Warriors never closes so the fucktards can be kept off my favorite roads

[triumph]

a message from a 'Shortie' who is a friend of one of the injured riders



so as it turns out the cruiser crossed the path of the sportsbike and learner who were heading North.
he is very lucky to be alive after being hit head on . hope they recover soon .

[Captain]

Tend to agree with you somewhat captain about slowing down, although if you ride within the rd and within your limits, we should have no issues. The road is not a racetrack, you can still go fast in your own lane, if you want to jeopardize ur own safety, go for it, but don't take the control away from others out for a Sunday ride by taking their piece of rd.

I know, you're right, I was just upset at reading about the accident.

[quickchick]

I hope Road Warriors never closes so the fucktards can be kept off my favorite roads

Sorry to disappoint Loafie, but Road Warriors will be closing at the end of this year and will not be re-opening in the New Year.

In regards to the accident, such terrible news. I hope all involved heal quickly.

[dilbee]

spoke to todd my mate from westerns today and said one of his mates that was with tex, siad the lady had also lost a hand. I hope This wasn't true as its mad enough that she lost a leg. Hope she will soon get better although knowing that one leg is gone isn't bad enough. Makes you think that in a matter of a few seconds that your life could change just like that. Stay safe people and keep alert.

[Johnny]

a message from a 'Shortie' who is a friend of one of the injured riders

Hey guys just a update, i met with my mate in hospital tonight he was travelling north when a guys in his 50's with a female pillion came onto his side of the road and hit him head on as he was leaning into a corner.

He had another mate riding with him on his L's who was also hit by the guy and my mate had to pick his bike up off him. My mate had a metal plate in his forearm and a pin in his pinky finger, he also had dislocated wrist which was put back into place in surgery.

As far as i know the story of the leg being amputated on site is not true and they bandaged her up and was airlifted with my mate. The rider of the other bike has a few scratches as far a i know, and i think he is a tourist aswell.

so as it turns out the cruiser crossed the path of the sportsbike and learner who were heading North.

Does this suprise me ? not one bit !. These cruiser riders are quick to point the finger at us sportbike riders, acuse us of being power rangers on a mission to speed, but fail to grasp the idea of sticking to their side of the rd, Ive lost count on how many times Ive had them in my face in oncoming traffic, and try to overtake them, safely, on a straight, but to have them power up only to walk through the corners, on the wrong side of the rd.

Yes, lets not be our own worst enemy here by accusing those of speeding, fact is there isnt A person here who hasnt doubled the speed limit at one time or another on the rd, if you say you havent then a) your a fucken liar, b) your still the same numptie you was 5 yr ago, as without pushing that little bit you will never improve on your abilities.
Road may not be the place to do it, and keep it to the track you may say, well, at $300 a pop for a day ( with other expenses added), not only limited trackdays that are booked out months ahead, but, limited tracks, and even then one of the three available closing this coming year, who's fault is all this that riders/drivers take by twisting the wrist or planting the foot on occasions on public rds ?? simple really, not the track operators etc, but the fucking Gumbymint for not doing a thing but revenue raise. Subsidised trackdays,revues of speed limits etc etc etc, its all common sence in the end, but unfortunetly the lure of the mighty $ through revenue raising is far too great to include any common sence on their part.
For you younger guys, the old rd was once a 100km zone, yes, sections of where 80, but the majority was a 100, and there was far less accidents then, on dinosour bikes and cars that weighed more than two tonne mind you, yet with all this technology gone into our vehicles, the speed limit has been dropped.
There will always be someone faster than you, and they are quickly labelled as hoons and dickheads who use the rd as a racetrack by the blind fools, its not those people who are casuing the trouble up there, anywhere, its the fucking numpties !

end rant and Im sorry, Im not gloryfying speeding on rd, or such, just pointing out a few obvious facts !

Again, my thoughts and sympathies are with the injured from this sickenning accident..

[clarkey]

Does this suprise me ? not one bit !. These cruiser riders are quick to point the finger at us sportbike riders, acuse us of being power rangers on a mission to speed, but fail to grasp the idea of sticking to their side of the rd, Ive lost count on how many times Ive had them in my face in oncoming traffic, and try to overtake them, safely, on a straight, but to have them power up only to walk through the corners, on the wrong side of the rd.

Yes, lets not be our own worst enemy here by accusing those of speeding, fact is there isnt A person here who hasnt doubled the speed limit at one time or another on the rd, if you say you havent then a) your a fucken liar, b) your still the same numptie you was 5 yr ago, as without pushing that little bit you will never improve on your abilities.
Road may not be the place to do it, and keep it to the track you may say, well, at $300 a pop for a day ( with other expenses added), not only limited trackdays that are booked out months ahead, but, limited tracks, and even then one of the three available closing this coming year, who's fault is all this that riders/drivers take by twisting the wrist or planting the foot on occasions on public rds ?? simple really, not the track operators etc, but the fucking Gumbymint for not doing a thing but revenue raise. Subsidised trackdays,revues of speed limits etc etc etc, its all common sence in the end, but unfortunetly the lure of the mighty $ through revenue raising is far too great to include any common sence on their part.
For you younger guys, the old rd was once a 100km zone, yes, sections of where 80, but the majority was a 100, and there was far less accidents then, on dinosour bikes and cars that weighed more than two tonne mind you, yet with all this technology gone into our vehicles, the speed limit has been dropped.
There will always be someone faster than you, and they are quickly labelled as hoons and dickheads who use the rd as a racetrack by the blind fools, its not those people who are casuing the trouble up there, anywhere, its the fucking numpties !

end rant and Im sorry, Im not gloryfying speeding on rd, or such, just pointing out a few obvious facts !

Again, my thoughts and sympathies are with the injured from this sickenning accident..

Yep- that about covers it

[spanky158]

Does this suprise me ? not one bit !. These cruiser riders are quick to point the finger at us sportbike riders, acuse us of being power rangers on a mission to speed, but fail to grasp the idea of sticking to their side of the rd, Ive lost count on how many times Ive had them in my face in oncoming traffic, and try to overtake them, safely, on a straight, but to have them power up only to walk through the corners, on the wrong side of the rd.

Yes, lets not be our own worst enemy here by accusing those of speeding, fact is there isnt A person here who hasnt doubled the speed limit at one time or another on the rd, if you say you havent then a) your a fucken liar, b) your still the same numptie you was 5 yr ago, as without pushing that little bit you will never improve on your abilities.
Road may not be the place to do it, and keep it to the track you may say, well, at $300 a pop for a day ( with other expenses added), not only limited trackdays that are booked out months ahead, but, limited tracks, and even then one of the three available closing this coming year, who's fault is all this that riders/drivers take by twisting the wrist or planting the foot on occasions on public rds ?? simple really, not the track operators etc, but the fucking Gumbymint for not doing a thing but revenue raise. Subsidised trackdays,revues of speed limits etc etc etc, its all common sence in the end, but unfortunetly the lure of the mighty $ through revenue raising is far too great to include any common sence on their part.
For you younger guys, the old rd was once a 100km zone, yes, sections of where 80, but the majority was a 100, and there was far less accidents then, on dinosour bikes and cars that weighed more than two tonne mind you, yet with all this technology gone into our vehicles, the speed limit has been dropped.
There will always be someone faster than you, and they are quickly labelled as hoons and dickheads who use the rd as a racetrack by the blind fools, its not those people who are casuing the trouble up there, anywhere, its the fucking numpties !

end rant and Im sorry, Im not gloryfying speeding on rd, or such, just pointing out a few obvious facts !

Again, my thoughts and sympathies are with the injured from this sickenning accident..

Johnny,

I do agree with you mate, however, you can still speed on ya own side of the road, you don't need to use the road as a racetrack, i.e. use all of the rd through a corner, you can still belt through the twisties on your own side of the rd. Yes, I have seen many cruisers cross the lines and end up on the wrong side of the rd, but yes, I have also seen plenty of motogp wannabes do exactly the same thing, perhaps the cruisers do it by mistake, the sportsbike guys seem to do it so they can use all the available rd to make a corner. I know I have fucked up before and run wide on the exit of a double apex turn (putty springs to mind a few weeks ago), I certainly wasn't pushing too hard, just made a small mistake. Lucky for me at the time there was nothing coming the other way. I am not labelling anyone as a dickhead for speeding, I am only labelling those who think it is fine to use the entire rd to get through the twisties.

[motoplast]

Yep. couldn't agree more, it's not about safety, the government wouldn't dream of subsidising a track day or a "improve ur riding/driving skills" day, there would be a minority voice that would get heard over all others; how dare the government help these hoons, money could be spent elsewhere, etc etc etc. Increase traffic fines, show no mercy, the government needs the money & revenue is the easiest way to get it, let's call it our (Government) bit on Road Safety! What a fuckin' joke!:storm:.

Cheers,
Tex & Bundy

[gazujc]

Johnny, I agree with you and as one who used to ride it when it was 100kmh (even lived at Brooklyn for a few years) I have to say that the road has gone to shit and that does not necessarily mean the surface.

I also totally agree that there were less accidents on the road back when the bikes/tyres etc required a riders full concentration and effort as the fun was all about controlling yourself and the bike whilst enjoying the situation. I even lost friends in the old days on that road and saw many an accident (often whilst sitting outside what was my families service station).

But, for some reason today we seem to have more accidents on better equipment which as you suggest must come back to the rider. In the old days (as you would know) the OP was an unofficial 'test track' for many a magazine and race team and was left alone by the police who instead concentrated on blood alley (Peats Ridge Road) as this was where the accidents occurred.

This being the case one cannot (and really, should not) blame the police for their over the top attitude to the OP as evidence of the carnage wrought weekly on that road cannot be wrong and really it is the bikers themselves who bring the police back daily.

That said, as all others have said best wishes to all concerned for a speedy physical and hopefully mental recovery.

Having witnessed first hand a multi bike head-on I can say that they are horrific in terms of the devastation that occurs and the movements of the bodies resulting from the impacting forces. To anyone who witnessed the accident or aftermath please do not try to be a 'hero' and seek help if you need it (whether it be from mates or professional) as accidnets can have long lasting effects on witnesses.





Garry

[Jonny DeWog]

.......
This being the case one cannot (and really, should not) blame the police for their over the top attitude to the OP as evidence of the carnage wrought weekly on that road cannot be wrong and really it is the bikers themselves who bring the police back daily.


I tend to agree.

The "Speed Kills" tag is good for the State coffers, and handy on a billboard, but every serious article I've read on this subject comes to a similar conclusion: "Speed (inappropriate to the conditions) Kills".

Johnny I get your point in that the OPH was once a 100km/h zone, and certainly a skilled rider could easily cope with that and more. But that was a tribute to days gone by. The conditions today are very different; the amount of traffic there (both bikes and other vehicles) on any sunny weekend is choking the road. I get what you say about new riders, but then there have always been "newbies" on the road, haven't there? The only thing you could say is that, given the dramatic increase in bike sales, there are simply a lot more of them (as there are bikers in general), hence more accidents..

Don't forget novice rider accidents actually fell once NSW instituted compulsory rider training for L's. (Though they increased in the 45+ age group, the baby-boomers returning to bikes after years off them! Seems like their "experience" didn't do them much good.)

I love road riding. I simply do my "scary-stuff" on the track, where the conditions are better....

jdw

[gazujc]

Johnny I get your point in that the OPH was once a 100km/h zone, and certainly a skilled rider could easily cope with that and more. But that was a tribute to days gone by. The conditions today are very different; the amount of traffic there (both bikes and other vehicles) on any sunny weekend is choking the road. I get what you say about new riders, but then there have always been "newbies" on the road, haven't there? The only thing you could say is that, given the dramatic increase in bike sales, there are simply a lot more of them (as there are bikers in general), hence more accidents..




I am not sure that I fully agree with the highlighted comments as when the road was the 100/80 of days gone by there was no Kariong-Calga freeway. All traffic from Gosford would travel the OPH to Calga (how good was the old Kariong-Girrakool section) before joining the Freeway whereas Newcastle and north traffic travelled the Peats Ride Road (and contributed to it's number of accidents).

Additional to this was the general number of cars who used the OPH as a major alternative to the freeway and living where I did for a number of years I can say that the OPH was a busy major road in days of old and would often slow to a crawl when the freeway was open.





Garry

[Captain]

At the end of the day, you need to leave the racing for the track, period. I have sped at times, of course I have - we all have, but I'm admitting that it was / is wrong. How many bikers will tell you that it's more because of 'luck' then 'skill' that they are still alive? Unfortunately not everyone is lucky, as we see all to often.
It wasn't that long ago that a very experienced rider died on that very road (I didn't know him, but many will know who I'm referring to), so whilst yes lack of experience and ability makes it worse, but sometimes they are 'accidents' - and they do not descriminate.

I'll keep the racing for the track too ... I have young kids to get home to.

[Naked Twin]

We can't be serious blaming the Government for this. People are making assumptions that someone was speeding. Was anyone riding in the group that crashed who can verify exactly what happened? No I didn't think so all we know for sure is that one rider crossed into the path of another.

Fact is I could do 90km/h on most bends on the old road and be within "my limits" on my bike, someone could be doing 60km/h the speed limit and far exceeding their ability so speed should not be the discussion it is peoples attitude to speeding and their lack or respect for their ability or lack thereof.

A couple of points/ misconceptions here - 1) the government subsidies the motorcycling test/ training for L and P riders and since they started doing this since the 80's motorcycle deaths have decreased. They could do more but we could say that for everything.
2) The old road was in parts a 100km/h zone previously but it was also maintained to a national highway standard at that time very unlike the surface in parts that are there now
3) more bikes are on the roads now then ever before, thus statistically more accidents. The more bikes frequent an area the more likely they will crash thus more likely the police will go. Simple supply and demand maths

[gazujc]

2) The old road was in parts a 100km/h zone previously but it was also maintained to a national highway standard at that time very unlike the surface in parts that are there now


The old road ceased being a national highway when the freeway opened. The National Highway then ran through Hornsby to Berowra where it became the freeway (initially the tollway) before ending and heading via Peats Ridge.

The 100 and 80 zones existed a long time after this work was completed (as did the dual carriageway section at Mt White and other overtake lanes.

The surface of the OPH was never a great surface in terms of grip and whilst I do not use it much nowadays (live south) the last time I did drive/ride it I would say that the general condition was far better than that of 10 - 20 years ago.





Garry

[Jonny DeWog]

Gazujc I take your point, but given that the 60km/hr limit is a "recent" change, I was speaking of my experiences of the road with its former higher speeds during the last decade, by which time the F3 had been well completed.

Once the F3 took hold, my memories were of deserted blacktop with occasional weekend scratchers tearing up and down, quite unlike the 2-wheeled convoys, rivalling the "pilgrammage to Mecca", that occur each weekend nowadays.

[Underground]

So, quick wrap up here.

Speed limit 100kmh - Peeps killed themselves.

Speed limit 80kmh - Peeps killed themselves.

Speed limit 60kmh - Peeps killed themselves.

From this I can conclude that riding in bath tubs is hazardous to your health.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/familyphotoshoot/1198540104703.jpg

[Captain]

Because the "limit" has no relevance when people are 'speeding' beyond their ability ... which is usually the way motorcyclist come unstuck on country roads.

[gazujc]

Gazujc I take your point, but given that the 60km/hr limit is a "recent" change, I was speaking of my experiences of the road with its former higher speeds during the last decade, by which time the F3 had been well completed.

Once the F3 took hold, my memories were of deserted blacktop with occasional weekend scratchers tearing up and down, quite unlike the 2-wheeled convoys, rivalling the "pilgrammage to Mecca", that occur each weekend nowadays.


Absolutely.

I used to love the fact that at times you could ride that road to your individual limits on that day and not see a soul, and to those not old enough this could happen on some weekends in years gone by.

I can recall spending hours testriding a ZZR600 (dealer lent it to me for two days) on that road at speeds I had never done before with the only vehicle seen being a police car who was stopped and who stopped me to tell me that he was about to set up a radar so it may be ebest that I get on my way. Yes, he did not lecture or even speak in any detrimental tones and readily told me that he was after a group of car testers/media who were heading south.

The shame of the OPH is that it is not alone as all roads are now suffering similar stories of over use (abuse?) which is resulting in increased crashes and attention from the law enforcers.





Garry

[Underground]

Because the "limit" has no relevance when people are 'speeding' beyond their ability ... which is usually the way motorcyclist come unstuck on country roads.

So we reduce the ability of those people, by reducing the speed limit...

Sounds like a plan...

[gazujc]

So we reduce the ability of those people, by reducing the speed limit...

Sounds like a plan...



Sorry if I misunderstand but are you suggesting that a higher speed increases the riders ability?

Or are you saying that the skill levels (ability) increases exponentially with the speed?

If so, I would totally disagree as a rider should have and use the same abilities whether it be at 20kmh, 100kmh, 200kmh or 250kmh and we are not just talking physical riding ability but mental, pschological and many others.





Garry

[zRoYz]

It's never good to hear about accidents but doesn't matter what road your on etc human error is the main cause & you can be doing 20kph or 200kph shit just happens.

You can be the safest rider/driver in the world & still have shit happen. What I will say is the bodies responsible for keeping accidents low as humanly possible do a piss poor job when education & training is the best way but only use the big stick method with fines etc. Bad riders/drivers learn nothing when hit with a fine but any other method costs money & doesn't make money for the powers that be.

[Captain]

So we reduce the ability of those people, by reducing the speed limit...

Sounds like a plan...

OK, you put yourself in the place of the staysafe committee (or whoever is responsible for this) and tell me what you will do. Forget big reeducation / training plans or redesign of the roads, the ministers will never wear the cost. Assume for a minute that you really do care about people dying on the Old Pacific Hwy ... and statistics tell you that with many of those who died there was excessive speed involved. What do you do?
I don't like it any more than you, but if the speed limit is 60, I'm likely to do 90ish ... but if it's 100, then I might push it to 130ish ...
zRoYz is right about fate, and shit that can happen at any speed but he knows as well as me that there is a big difference between 90 and 130 ... and the outcome should 'shit' happen.

[stetto]

Not long ago did my p's test and was told any accident involvong a bike is the bikes fault. As much as i disagree, by going out on ur bike, u take a massive risk. We all no how bad some drivers are yet we still choose to share the road with them. Unfortunately this particular accident is devastating, but at least no one died.

Also on another note, does anyone no the pillion who lost her leg? Who's to say it wasn't her fault she may have been inexperienced and shat herself mid corner and leaned the opposite way when the rider was already on the limit of his lane? Probs the cruiser riders fault for going too hard with a passenger if thats the case. I'm not pointing the finger just speculating

[Alex.]

Not long ago did my p's test and was told any accident involvong a bike is the bikes fault.

Also on another note, does anyone no the pillion who lost her leg? Who's to say it wasn't her fault she may have been inexperienced and shat herself mid corner and leaned the opposite way when the rider was already on the limit of his lane? Probs the cruiser riders fault for going too hard with a passenger if thats the case. I'm not pointing the finger just speculating

Two things about your post:

1. What fucking moronic ballbag would tell you that "any accident involving a bike is the bikes fault"??? Tell that to your fellow RATS who've had the displeasure of being hit by cars over the years.

2. Unless you were there or are family / friends of those involved and know the actual cause of this particular accident, DO NOT SPECULATE or make any false implication of those involved!

[Underground]

Woop there it is

[HYPE]

Two things about your post:

1. What fucking moronic ballbag would tell you that "any accident involving a bike is the bikes fault"??? Tell that to your fellow RATS who've had the displeasure of being hit by cars over the years.

if i deciphered accurately i believe he was trying to say that every bike accident is the riders fault irrespective of the situation... meaning along the lines that 'we must avoid any and all approaches upon us'

[Alex.]

if i deciphered accurately i believe he was trying to say that every bike accident is the riders fault irrespective of the situation... meaning along the lines that 'we must avoid any and all approaches upon us'

I interpreted the statement in the literal sense as written. I'm not trying to defame him as he was simply quoting a remark made to him.

[OutOfControl]

Two things about your post:

1. What fucking moronic ballbag would tell you that "any accident involving a bike is the bikes fault"???

as much as i disagree with it, i was told the very same thing when i did my test a few years ago

[stetto]

Two things about your post:

1. What fucking moronic ballbag would tell you that "any accident involving a bike is the bikes fault"??? Tell that to your fellow RATS who've had the displeasure of being hit by cars over the years.

2. Unless you were there or are family / friends of those involved and know the actual cause of this particular accident, DO NOT SPECULATE or make any false implication of those involved!

The words as much i as i disagree followed that, please read the post b4 u jump down my throat. HYPE's got it, it was the instructor who said it and i dont agree, although there r times when u r in a blind spot for a split second when things can go wrong. The idea is that u shouldnt put urselves into these situations without an escape route. Again i don't agree if u hold ur line and stay in ur lane and someone runs wide, like in this instance, i wouldnt say its ur fault. I'm saying u took a risk sharing the road with other people who make mistakes

The other point, i'd like to learn from their mistake so im not ruling anything out, i did say im not pointing the finger

[wudka]

I see your point. But if I am on a mulitlane highway, which easily will handle 200+ and the speed limit is 70-80-90... I guarantee ar some point I will be doing a big speed.
Dropping the speed limit is a cop out. And at the end of the day, since all the committes are responsible for assesing and making recommendations, they should make the ministers wear the cost.

But here is the fundamental problem.

No one is willing to raisse their hand and make a stand. Everyone just wants to go with the flow and not become a "whistle blower" and potentially not get rewarded.

I did the traffic offenders programme, and one of the speakers was an RTA representitive. He argued that driver eductaion is a bad thing, because then people will believe they are better than they are, and cause accidents.

So his "and the authority" solution is to slow everyone right down... in other words, soon why bother having to do a test for a license, just drive but only at 5km/h... then there should be no casulties.

[Turtle]

Yep

[Alex.]

The words as much i as i disagree followed that, please read the post b4 u jump down my throat.

I did, quite a few times before I posted. Again, I interpreted the statement in the literal sense as written.

[Turtle]

me too..............

[zRoYz]

I did the traffic offenders programme, and one of the speakers was an RTA representitive. He argued that driver eductaion is a bad thing, because then people will believe they are better than they are, and cause accidents.

So his "and the authority" solution is to slow everyone right down... in other words, soon why bother having to do a test for a license, just drive but only at 5km/h... then there should be no casulties.

I really would have liked to be in that class when the RTA rep stated that, what a total load of bullshit & the reason there are so many acco's when the authority that is there to look after us has that attitude.
I would have simply stated if rider/driver education is bad how do people learn to handle there tyres sliding when the RTA leave gravel all over the road before, during & after road works.

[wudka]

There wasnt a point arguing. The guy was a knob, but atleast honest enough "or stupid enough" to openly state that the RTA and highest authorities do not believe in educating people for the road.

Instead they believe that someone who is too scared to operate the machinery reliably is a safer road user...
It just confirmed soo many of my pet hates that it made me laugh during the class as to how rediculous the system is.

[Captain]

I wasn't in the class, but I really suspect the instructor was trying to make a slightly different point. Of course it's not 'literally' your fault, but IF an accident occured then it was your fault for having placed yourself in the situation where an accident could occur. It might not be correct, but it's not a bad attitude to teach, given that the ONLY control you have is over YOUR own actions and choices.

[gazujc]

Not long ago did my p's test and was told any accident involvong a bike is the bikes fault.

Not going to jump down your throat in any way as I have heard the same said by many people including motorcycle instructors, through police and onto RTA and none have said this in any negative way and all did say the same goes for car drivers etc. Instead they have all meant that as a vulnerable minority we the motorcyclist if involved in an accident have in some way contributed to the result. It could be by failing to maintain our vehicle, a proper watch, observation skills etc, but we did play a part.

I have had two experienced people (one motorcycle police riding instructor, one stay upright instructor) state that everytime we have a near miss or an accident (even to running wide), one of the best learning tools is to stop, assess the situation and determine what we could do differently to avoid a future recurrence. Certainly as they stated it is not always possible to do this, but they recommend it strongly and funnily enough it is useful at times when I have made the minor mistake or had the near miss and at other times the learnings have helped me avoid issues.





Garry

[Turtle]

what a total load of bullshit

Can you write that ?? With swear words as such ??? Being a BIG MODERATOR now ???? Hope your post doesn't get deleted or even "Cleaned up for that matter"

[stetto]

I wasn't in the class, but I really suspect the instructor was trying to make a slightly different point. Of course it's not 'literally' your fault, but IF an accident occured then it was your fault for having placed yourself in the situation where an accident could occur. It might not be correct, but it's not a bad attitude to teach, given that the ONLY control you have is over YOUR own actions and choices.

Yep spot on thats how i interpreted it. Somethings are just bad luck though and it was 'ur fault' u took the risk to ride that day. Stupid instructor said about 5 mins later his biggest accident wasn't his fault. LOL he was quick to correct himself when a few of us quoted his previous statement.

[LAW]

I'm with Captain on this, if I get hit the first thing I think is "Oh shit, my nice clean fairings!" and then "what did I do wrong?". Sometimes it's nothing, there was black bitumen gravel on a black road on a blind corner with no warning and you just binned it, not my fault. It's not neccissarrily my fault but my attitude when I riding, in traffic and on my own, is what can I do to not get hit.

I also believe that "speeding" is when you think "Oh shit, I hope I can make this corner". or when you're pushing so hard you tense up and over-brake or run wide. I've done it once or twice and it's not fun, but regardless of what your speedo says or what the posted limit is, I don't think you're "speeding" until your ability to react and maneuver around any hazards that you should reasonably be expected to avoid is hampered.

As a young person I would like to see more practical training. "Compulsory rider training" is 20k/h around witches hats, I want to see a wet track with some random hazards like white lines, distractions on the side of the road and progressive training ending on something like a 600cc or 250 2stroke so riders are more accustomed to bigger bikes when they're finally allowed to ride them.

Also more realistic speed limits, enouragement to do track days (I learned SO MUCH about my bike on my first trackday, I'd owned it for well over 6 months but I learned how far I could lean, how much power the rear tyre could handle through a corner and how hard I could brake without the added danger of a public road) and optional advanced rider training (like Superbike school or whatever) but subsidised if it's your first one or even if it's just for P platers.

And Captain, you had a great point last wekend with regards to your kids growing up. Even if you're not shocked with what they're doing, pretend you are and give them something harmless to rebel against instead of letting them push the actual limits. I think this is fantastic. The more people try the more teenagers will rebel, so perhaps a less invasive strategy for younger drivers is in order.

$o.o2

[Naked Twin]

The old road ceased being a national highway when the freeway opened. The National Highway then ran through Hornsby to Berowra where it became the freeway (initially the tollway) before ending and heading via Peats Ridge.

The 100 and 80 zones existed a long time after this work was completed (as did the dual carriageway section at Mt White and other overtake lanes.

The surface of the OPH was never a great surface in terms of grip and whilst I do not use it much nowadays (live south) the last time I did drive/ride it I would say that the general condition was far better than that of 10 - 20 years ago.





Garry

The area North of Brooklyn has a spray on tar in most places, not not bitumen, the area south of Brooklyn has tar strips running across it to fill in gaps that have opened up over the years.

The road was also two lanes wide in many sections north of Brooklyn. I can assure the road surface is not as good as it was 20 years ago. Remember also that the road was closed North of Brooklyn for several years due to the road collapse.

Nick

[xcabbi]

I'm with Captain on this, if I get hit the first thing I think is "Oh shit, my nice clean fairings!" and then "what did I do wrong?". Sometimes it's nothing, there was black bitumen gravel on a black road on a blind corner with no warning and you just binned it, not my fault. It's not neccissarrily my fault but my attitude when I riding, in traffic and on my own, is what can I do to not get hit.

I also believe that "speeding" is when you think "Oh shit, I hope I can make this corner". or when you're pushing so hard you tense up and over-brake or run wide. I've done it once or twice and it's not fun, but regardless of what your speedo says or what the posted limit is, I don't think you're "speeding" until your ability to react and maneuver around any hazards that you should reasonably be expected to avoid is hampered.

As a young person I would like to see more practical training. "Compulsory rider training" is 20k/h around witches hats, I want to see a wet track with some random hazards like white lines, distractions on the side of the road and progressive training ending on something like a 600cc or 250 2stroke so riders are more accustomed to bigger bikes when they're finally allowed to ride them.

Also more realistic speed limits, enouragement to do track days (I learned SO MUCH about my bike on my first trackday, I'd owned it for well over 6 months but I learned how far I could lean, how much power the rear tyre could handle through a corner and how hard I could brake without the added danger of a public road) and optional advanced rider training (like Superbike school or whatever) but subsidised if it's your first one or even if it's just for P platers.

And Captain, you had a great point last wekend with regards to your kids growing up. Even if you're not shocked with what they're doing, pretend you are and give them something harmless to rebel against instead of letting them push the actual limits. I think this is fantastic. The more people try the more teenagers will rebel, so perhaps a less invasive strategy for younger drivers is in order.

$o.o2

I'll see your $0.02
This was the most intelligent post I have read on this site since I joined LAW. Agreed wholeheartedly with every single point raised.

Only problem is, we now have a govt so determined to slash spending (especially in the medical industry) in the critical areas, yet give handouts for useless community groups and other pointless crap. How are we going to convince them to spend money where it counts and implement the above ideas?

[bargain]

neccissarrily

necessarily.




:dancesmiley:




:stirthepot:

[PlatinumGrit]

So, quick wrap up here.

Speed limit 100kmh - Peeps killed themselves.

Speed limit 80kmh - Peeps killed themselves.

Speed limit 60kmh - Peeps killed themselves.

From this I can conclude that riding in bath tubs is hazardous to your health.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/familyphotoshoot/1198540104703.jpg

haaaaahahahahahahaha :lmao::lmao:

[LAW]

necessarily.




:dancesmiley:




:stirthepot:

prick.

[LIV2]

so after all that, I have to know

What happened with the woman? did she lose her limb? I surely hope not :/

[spanky158]

From what I read in the paper she did, not a good piece of news

[Crapatit]

I'll see your $0.02
This was the most intelligent post I have read on this site since I joined LAW. Agreed wholeheartedly with every single point raised.

Only problem is, we now have a govt so determined to slash spending (especially in the medical industry) in the critical areas, yet give handouts for useless community groups and other pointless crap. How are we going to convince them to spend money where it counts and implement the above ideas?

Sorry, but even as an un-introduced newby, I gotta say... :ayyy:
You're bang on the money.

And accidents do still happen.
And people still drive/ride beyond their abilities, the road conditions and their equipment conditions on occasions.
The gov't just hasn't figured out how to legislate for varying capabilities of individuals, hence they legislate for the idiots.