Help with R1 Track Bike

[Big Lunt]

Hey guys,

I think its time to do some work to the R1 - I think I need to spend some dollars on her.

After a bingle last July She has now a very ugly set of second hand glass that I picked up for $100 (I thought may as well grab them as thats the cheapest glass I have ever come across). I have attached some photos of what she looks like now and what she looked like.

Anyway all that I have done to is have placed a M4 slip on exhaust, now an ohlins dampener, and a race tech rear shock.

I have done about 7000kms on the track with the bike and have owned it since about 2003.

Not sure where I would start (please nobody say get rid of it and get a new bike) it has been so reliable burns no oil and manages to get me around the track in the 1min 41 bracket. Since the big bingle on T8 and a brocken leg 2nd track day back and down to the 1min 44's - I thought time to do some freshening up and improvements.

Anyway........not sure where to start I am thinking to freshen the front forks as I am sure that oil would be tired by now - can someone tell me what oil I should use. Other thought get the forks over to race tech as the back is excellent - can someone tell me price for a basic job spring and revalve - just on the forks.

Want to get some more ponies out of her so was thinking air filter and jet kit. I know JBW had a 98 R1 but is anyone else that has done basics to 2001 R1 and what I should get.

Difficult to do the jet kit upgrade and filter??? Safer to get it on the dyno to get the settings right? Any idea what the HP increase would be?

Any ideas would be of great help - any parts would be even better!!!!

[Zee]

Your number one priority should be making her safe and suspension.
Hp...don't need it yet. Set her up so you can do those times easy and then push.
T8 aye farrrk! That would of been a big one. What happened???
I've had my moments through 8 as well. As soon as I pushed her into the 45-46 bracket she'd wanna swap ends around 8 :eyecrazy: Fuk that! Straight to Zeno....we see what happens on Sunday.

[jasonbw]

I'd have to suggest Zeno look after the suspenders :D I freshened my own forks since all I wanted to do was give it new oil and change the springs, together with an ohlins shock revalved by Pons for me the bike was great. I still have the rear shock, but maybe ask Zeno if you can get good bang for buck without it?

Yeah, suspension is #1, HP #2. Or actually, rider is #1 !! but with you in the sub 1:41's your doing a load more right than wrong!!!

[Big Lunt]

Your number one priority should be making her safe and suspension.
Hp...don't need it yet. Set her up so you can do those times easy and then push.
T8 aye farrrk! That would of been a big one. What happened???
I've had my moments through 8 as well. As soon as I pushed her into the 45-46 bracket she'd wanna swap ends around 8 :eyecrazy: Fuk that! Straight to Zeno....we see what happens on Sunday.

She is safe and actually the front feels better now than it did before. I dropped the whole front end out and re-aligned it again as the wheel was facing a little to one way (main concern was that I bent the front forks).

Just touched the apex then is started tank slapping bad - feet were all over the place but stood the bike straight up and at that speed was off the track. In that split second I thought I am bailing from this runaway train and hence jumped off the back - tumbled about 8 times. The bike went into to kitty litter then the handlebars turned left and the bike went down - it must have gone over as the top of the tank is a little squashed and the top half of the fairing was smashed!!! Slight bent subframe - just the end of it.

I am pretty sure that the crap dampener I had on it caused it also I did drop the forks through as additional 5mm after the first session so it would tip quicker and track tighter (I swear I picked anywhere between 10-20km/h on each bend!!!!)

Lost a little confidence on T8 and it was one of my favourite corners - I would normally hit the outside even if their were another couple of bikes on the inside.

[Big Lunt]

I'd have to suggest Zeno look after the suspenders :D I freshened my own forks since all I wanted to do was give it new oil and change the springs, together with an ohlins shock revalved by Pons for me the bike was great. I still have the rear shock, but maybe ask Zeno if you can get good bang for buck without it?

Yeah, suspension is #1, HP #2. Or actually, rider is #1 !! but with you in the sub 1:41's your doing a load more right than wrong!!!


Jason - I knew you raise your hand with info!!!

I am thinking the same thing - set of springs and fresh oil. Did some research and at the time some of the top racers were able to pull 38/39's on a 2001 R1 road bike. So the standard stuff must be decent (except I have done 7000kms on the track so it may be a little tired).

The race tech rear shock I have is excellent and I think that the front is letting me down. I am thinking to throw in the filter and jet kit as the top end does lose a little puff.

Hopefully I can knock off a couple of more seconds and get close to the same times - need to change the front pads on the bike too as they jsut don't have the bite as they had before. I tend to brake very late and enter with high corner speed and carry it through rather than power out (still ride it like I am riding a 250 just the way I ride).

Gee I am hanging to do a ride day with RATS crew:drool: !!!!

[jasonbw]

Well, if you feel like doing that 'freshening up' yourself then yell out, I've got the gear. Its good to get in there, nothing beats a pro though but feel free to yell out.

[Zee]

She is safe and actually the front feels better now than it did before. I dropped the whole front end out and re-aligned it again as the wheel was facing a little to one way (main concern was that I bent the front forks).

Just touched the apex then is started tank slapping bad - feet were all over the place but stood the bike straight up and at that speed was off the track. In that split second I thought I am bailing from this runaway train and hence jumped off the back - tumbled about 8 times. The bike went into to kitty litter then the handlebars turned left and the bike went down - it must have gone over as the top of the tank is a little squashed and the top half of the fairing was smashed!!! Slight bent subframe - just the end of it.

I am pretty sure that the crap dampener I had on it caused it also I did drop the forks through as additional 5mm after the first session so it would tip quicker and track tighter (I swear I picked anywhere between 10-20km/h on each bend!!!!)

Lost a little confidence on T8 and it was one of my favourite corners - I would normally hit the outside even if their were another couple of bikes on the inside.

Tank slaps after touching the apex aye. See if we can break this down a little.

At the apex you're on the power...right??? So frontend unweighted rear has squatted. Bump hits left side of tyre, jolting it right, than another hits, jolting it left and so forth...tankslapper. Maybe the problem isn't all necessarily with the front...a weak rear shock or spring could be the cause too. Best you speak to a man that knows his craft comprehensively....Zeno's ya man.

Glad ya back on track :ayyy: T8 crash would scare the shit out of me.

[zRoYz]

As already stated going fast is more rider than most things, but the times you can do mean your at that point when every little thing can help & it all comes down to how fast you really want to go.

Susupension is the number 1 thing to going fast you can be down on power but if bike setup well & rider can do the craft he can make up for it as all have seen in motogp etc.
Forks & shock should match each other & work together so that would be my first place to spend money on. Second would be a good quality steering damper, then I would look at breathing some more fire into the belly of the beast.

Just a good old carby strip & clean & resetup float levels etc can do wonders & then throw in a new set of plugs. After market air filters are over rated & most OEM filters if clean will flow better it's just you can wash & reuse aftermarket filters.

Exhaust is another place to gain some ponies with full race system then maybe set of better profile cams etc etc you can just keep going.

Gearing is also a cheep way to improve things with going lower on tight tracks & higher on open tracks.

[WET4URacing]

[QUOTE=zRoYz;79298]As already stated going fast is more rider than most things, but the times you can do mean your at that point when every little thing can help & it all comes down to how fast you really want to go.

i think what you want is here

"How fast do you want to spend"

and another little ditty

"The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the
sweetness of cheap price is forgotten"

words of wisdom from an old tuner
a very wise man

[jasonbw]

Tank slaps after touching the apex aye. See if we can break this down a little.

At the apex you're on the power...right??? So frontend unweighted rear has squatted. Bump hits left side of tyre, jolting it right, than another hits, jolting it left and so forth...tankslapper. Maybe the problem isn't all necessarily with the front...a weak rear shock or spring could be the cause too. Best you speak to a man that knows his craft comprehensively....Zeno's ya man.

Glad ya back on track :ayyy: T8 crash would scare the shit out of me.

I'm not 100% sure if the $$ invested would fix this tho Wet4U, maybe a riding style change *could* help, but if he doesnt want to change then yeah, wise words... you get what you pay for eh.

Zee, Good move to break it down but methinks thats analysing a typical style that Big Lunt doesnt use? Big Lunt, from your description above it seems you run the front hard in till apex or even just after, then you hit the throttle hard, is that right? Zee's right about analysing, this needs to be worked out so you know where the problem is. On this particular apex I've got to be thinking that fully bottomed out suspension (front) doesnt give too much in the way of traction to the front, and top'd out suspension (rear on your apex) has the same problem.

Zeno, are you able to tune to suit that style? Obviously suspension in the centres third of its stroke works best, but if Big Lunt's not rolling on the gas to the apex then the suspension will be - at best - harsh at the front and vague at the rear. What can be done tuning wise to help him keep that style?

EDIT: Anyway, we can guess all day long, maybe see a pro coach (CSS) or enlist Zeno ? :D

[zenodamper]

Well, OK will give things here an answer...

Exhibit a) (!!!!)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/zenodamper/DSCF0337.jpg

...here is the $$$ problem. Like the way Ohlin's steering dampers want putting on a vacuum machine to be done right (an expensive machine that), to do a 98-01 R1 fork one has no choice but to use parts - parts cost money, no choice...

If you put in a set of springs, it will unbalance the initial compression and initial rebound; which people then had a go with curing via upping the oil viscosity - fixing one but not the other...

The non-rebuildable rebound/midi assembly pictured above was designed in conjunction with the use of the OEM fork springs - which are 0.75, that's the same as what our little 400 V-twin uses on the street, and about 7-10% less spring rate than a 400 4-cyl might use at the same circuit - sort of heavy geezer on a 250 2-banger sort of fork spring....

Can I build it to how he wants it? Well yeah...... :confused1: Can build it anyways anyone chooses if they know what to choose - you name it, it can be designed; but the more and more stipulation, the more I need actual damping slopes and % values data. But that wasn't the ask eh.... You wanna know if it can be designed to let him utilize aggressive corner speed? And yes of course... (can even use some 2nd hand RT if desired)

But for R1s like this they need rebound piston holders; needs rebound needles and rebound pistons. Some of this can be 2nd hand to cut costs... But there is no escaping the fact that is more pricey than doing an 02/3 model (early R6 cost more than 03/4 R6 too).

But in this case, it is do the whole lot, or not at all... (well, sometimes I hate to give opinions - bearer of bad news sux). Doing one aspect, and not fixing the rest could see some unforeseen problems - like hydro-lock or cavitation.




...now u see why I delayed answering! :(

[jasonbw]

nah, great info. like Roys said, doing one end and not doing the other is pointless, the bike needs balance !

[Turtle]

1.41........thats fast dude.:ayyy:

[Birdman45]

if you are only running a slip on and the engine is stock, forget the jet kit, waste of money. Every jet kit we have done, more often than not, you end up using MAYBE a bigger main jet, that's IT, everything else makes the bike run way too rich, so TRY one up in the main jet and see how that goes, but mostly, that model R1 only went/fuelled better with a pipe and/or even a system.

Is T8 Corporate? I had a huge off there, fukt my back to this day....... 929 cased out, it was my fav corner also, but when I picked it back up, went off and head to toed 11ty times through the gravel, woke up in the medical centre. LOL By the time I was ready to get back out there, ( a few months later) the 2nd session in, I cased out on that exact same corner again, I had been doing 1.40's with no prob so far, but after I did it again, it was Bye bye 929. LOL

[Big Lunt]

Well, OK will give things here an answer...

Exhibit a) (!!!!)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/zenodamper/DSCF0337.jpg

...here is the $$$ problem. Like the way Ohlin's steering dampers want putting on a vacuum machine to be done right (an expensive machine that), to do a 98-01 R1 fork one has no choice but to use parts - parts cost money, no choice...

If you put in a set of springs, it will unbalance the initial compression and initial rebound; which people then had a go with curing via upping the oil viscosity - fixing one but not the other...

The non-rebuildable rebound/midi assembly pictured above was designed in conjunction with the use of the OEM fork springs - which are 0.75, that's the same as what our little 400 V-twin uses on the street, and about 7-10% less spring rate than a 400 4-cyl might use at the same circuit - sort of heavy geezer on a 250 2-banger sort of fork spring....

Can I build it to how he wants it? Well yeah...... :confused1: Can build it anyways anyone chooses if they know what to choose - you name it, it can be designed; but the more and more stipulation, the more I need actual damping slopes and % values data. But that wasn't the ask eh.... You wanna know if it can be designed to let him utilize aggressive corner speed? And yes of course... (can even use some 2nd hand RT if desired)

But for R1s like this they need rebound piston holders; needs rebound needles and rebound pistons. Some of this can be 2nd hand to cut costs... But there is no escaping the fact that is more pricey than doing an 02/3 model (early R6 cost more than 03/4 R6 too).

But in this case, it is do the whole lot, or not at all... (well, sometimes I hate to give opinions - bearer of bad news sux). Doing one aspect, and not fixing the rest could see some unforeseen problems - like hydro-lock or cavitation.




...now u see why I delayed answering! :(

Shit now you guys have really confused me hey I don't plan to spend big $$$ but the rear shock in standard trim was absolutley crap. I was scraping the pegs and the cases on turn 1, 2, 8. Once I got the rear shock thrown in it was like a completely new bike and I could really hit the corners hard.

I think I may just throw some new oil in the front and start saving for a newer bike as it sounds like too much too invest in such an old bike really.

As for the HP gain I think Birdman is right may not worth doing unless I have all the other parts to go with it.

Maybe I should start saving my $$$ and get a newer bike that has been sorted already. Thanks for the help guy might just do the basics and hold on to it for the short term.

Got to agree its all about the rider but I think that you can only push a basic machine so far on standard equipment - love to ride a fully sorted race bike!!!!

[zenodamper]

Easily sorted - put the 10R on circuit, and the Yammy on the street.

[Big Lunt]

Easily sorted - put the 10R on circuit, and the Yammy on the street.

Now that has crossed my mind many times......except the 10R is just too pristine to throw it on the track. R1 was bought cheap years back so it was able to be thrown around without too concern.

10R - handling is pretty damn good straight out of the box!!!:ninja:

[zenodamper]

Aha - well, knowing the early 10rs backwards, would it be that that sort of fork suits your style (always interested)...

[Big Lunt]

The 10R handling to me personally is fantastic.....something you know that I should know???

When I was upgrading from my 2001 Gixxer 1000 the Zx10R was the best in my opinion - I rode them all and it was the best.

Come on spill your beans whats the story with the 10R's

[zenodamper]

Most people find the fork damping to be slip through, then overl harsh; but of course, a heavier person will find it easier to activate, or shall we say push through that kind of resistance (damping). And with natural weight holding it down, the usual complaint of insufficient rebound should not be too much of a concern - what do you run? 5 lines with 6 compression and 4 rebound? In any case, the fork spring is at least 20 odd % stiffer than the Yammie's, so should work fairly for ya... For me to ride one, it would be "bang bang bang" through the bars.... :lmao:

[zenodamper]

I should also add, and I suppose this is way more useful/interesting perhaps? If you like the OEM 04/5 10Rs, then there is high probability of you liking the 675 Triumph - ridden one? (but u would likely dislike the 06/7 10R - and I do too!) :lmao:

Actually, I wish people would come in and say stuff like, "I want it a bit like this model", and the way that felt to them, and then adjust for more control, with a more modern edge.... I want it to feel like a Busa, or an 04 R1; a Gixxer 750?

Would be nice if they all mentioned more of what they want! As your 10R fork sits exactly the opposite to the R1 from my perspective! Antonymical (is that a word?) design directions... But weirdly enuff, people will be wanting one direction more than the other, and yet not be able to mention it - which is the frustrating element to this game! (spend alot of time trying to psycho-analyse them) ;)

[SLAC]

Actually, I wish people would come in and say stuff like, "I want it a bit like this model", and the way that felt to them, and then adjust for more control, with a more modern edge.... I want it to feel like a Busa, or an 04 R1; a Gixxer 750?

so if i waltz in and say i want my GSXR thou 02 to feel like a 08, you can do that right?

[zenodamper]

As long as I have ridden a stock K8 - yes! As to date, I have only ridden one @ Wakefield with slicks, TTX shock and FGK kit fork... Need a) the memory of how it felt, and b) the OEM data curves to cross-formulate; other than that is just a matter of springing and damping. Though the linkages differ, fork not so much, and for the shock due to this linkage the earlier ones have, one has to like Ohlin's did, add a nose to the start of the curve to try and flatten it out...

Can I make it lighter and faster - no! (well, yes; but I don't spend time on that anymore - plenty of those tuners out there!) :)

[Big Lunt]

I should also add, and I suppose this is way more useful/interesting perhaps? If you like the OEM 04/5 10Rs, then there is high probability of you liking the 675 Triumph - ridden one? (but u would likely dislike the 06/7 10R - and I do too!) :lmao:

Actually, I wish people would come in and say stuff like, "I want it a bit like this model", and the way that felt to them, and then adjust for more control, with a more modern edge.... I want it to feel like a Busa, or an 04 R1; a Gixxer 750?

Would be nice if they all mentioned more of what they want! As your 10R fork sits exactly the opposite to the R1 from my perspective! Antonymical (is that a word?) design directions... But weirdly enuff, people will be wanting one direction more than the other, and yet not be able to mention it - which is the frustrating element to this game! (spend alot of time trying to psycho-analyse them) ;)

Even though I do not understand what you are talking about I think it makes sense to me. I weigh about 92kg so hence the heavier weight probably suits the stiffer arrangement on the 10R.

Maybe I should give you my suspension and let you deal with it - but then there is that other variable $$$$$$$.

Thanks for the info I agree with you that people should ride different bikes then they would probably make your job easier when they describe it that way