RAT's Race-Track... just a dream...

[DanOz]

Alright, it's a dream, but dreaming is not forbidden.... yet. I know I'm gonna make many of you laugh or answer with ridiculous comments..... but I'll have a go with this one...

I spent the last weekend in the middle of nowhere: a friend of mine bought a massive property between Katoomba and Oberon (it has the 6 foot track and the Cox River crossing the property) and invited me and family to go and spend the weekend there.
No mistery the fact that I also wanted to go and have a look at the place to check if there was any room for fitting a race-track somewhere in the property as the guy had mentioned to me in the past that currently there is an unofficial dirt-bike track in it.
Unfortunately the property doesn't fit: there's some flat areas but he plans to develop on them (+ a bloody golf course sooner or later), and the rest is too steep.... :(

As at home he had a some local property/real estate agents magazines, I had a look at them, and found out that there are some interesting blocks of land for sale in the area (Oberon-Katoomba), that in theory would fit the "dream" of a private race-track.

On average this type of land goes for sale between the 2000$ and the 3000$ per acre; keep in mind that a property as Eastern creek is on about 170 Acres while the "private" backyard-racetrack in the Central Coast we discussed a few days ago is on approx. 100 Acres.

I know that laying bitumen on a road is around 20k AU$ per km, and the cost of building the road itself before laying the bitumen would vary substantially depending on having a concrete base or not. Let's assume a 60K AU$ per Km times 3 km for laying the track, and 100k to build a garage to store a few bikes, and another 200k to build some residences to stay overnight.

Therefore, rough assumption, with three-quarter of a million, IN THEORY, there could be a private backyard-track up and running....
Borrowing 500K and putting the rest, sharing the property among 10 passionate members, would be an investment of 25 K each

Couple of questions for you guys:
1) To put a road in my back-yard I imagine I have to go to council, right? Would they question what sort of use the backyard road (that will end up being the track) is for, or shall the owner declare that it's a sort of race-track?
2) Could the neighbours have a say for the noise or the gas emissions? I've seen plenty of dirt bikes running up and down in those properties..... and no neighbours shooting at them.
3) If I don't damage anyone assets and interests, I can do whatever I want in my backyard. Is this a fair assumption?

Sorry guys to bother you with such a silly concept.... it sounds more as a "pub chat"... but isn't also this the purpose of the forum?
Ciao

[jasonbw]

Not silly, good on you for investigating... Katoomba way is too far in my opinion tho.

[lilninja]

hey danoz I like where your head is at!
Buing in the building game I know how much pains in the arses councils can be!
Firstly they will want a detail of exactly what you plan on building in your backyard, then it would have to go through EPA council as well as ayone else who has a vested interet in the project eg waterboard etc.
Its not only the building of the track but if its gonna be a backyard thing so to say how do you plan on paying the money back without hiring it out to groups of people! then it becomes a cmmercial business and the area is more than likely not zoned for comercial use.

Unfortunately it is no longer a cas of its my back yard and ill do what I want with it its more of this is my backyard and I wonder what everyone else will let me do with it!

Like I said before I like where your heads at but it would be very hard to do in my opinion!

[lilninja]

Not silly, good on you for investigating... Katoomba way is too far in my opinion tho.

only cause you live in the gong!

[DanOz]

Its not only the building of the track but if its gonna be a backyard thing so to say how do you plan on paying the money back without hiring it out to groups of people! then it becomes a cmmercial business and the area is more than likely not zoned for comercial use.



No, no commercial use at all!
Access to the track would be just for the 10-15 initial members and few selected friends :ayyy:
Just pure exclusive personal USAGE!
Whenever you want, you just turn up and get you're bike out.......
It wouldn't be a matter of business.. it's about passion.
If you have to invest developing properties there is much more lucrative things you could develp than a race-track.
Ciao

[lilninja]

so how would the track pay for itself?

[Alex.]

Damo is right on the council side of things - they're difficult to deal with at the best of times :cursing:
Aside from the council, EPA, water board, national parks (depending upon the area), a HUGE issue would be the surrounding residents and neighbours. It's normally these people who cause the biggest stink regarding DA/DC's no matter how remote the property is.
The idea though is brilliant - I really like it.

I wonder what it would be worth to buy an existing race track (ie. Wakefield Park)?

[Johnny]

so how would the track pay for itself?
Every rider who rides it, HAS to buy a bottle of water for $50.

Your not charging for entry,
therefor not a business
nor can be sued.

That would only pay for the upkeep/maintenance, medics, plus the many other things.

Good idea, but really its only a dream as it will cost well into the millions, far over the 3/4 million you may think it might cost, which leaves me to quote a line from the movie, the castle..."tell him his dreaming" :)


Sorry Danoz :p

[DanOz]

Aside from the council, EPA, water board, national parks (depending upon the area), a HUGE issue would be the surrounding residents and neighbours. It's normally these people who cause the biggest stink regarding DA/DC's no matter how remote the property is.
The idea though is brilliant - I really like it.

I can imagine that to go through proper DA it's gonna be a nightmare.
My question was if you can avoid the DAS side of things?
That's why I was saying, you put a DA in for "private roads improvement" or something similar, not for a race track that no-one is gonna ever approve; that's all.
Somenthing like "road conditions need to be improved to enhance cow transportatin from one side of the property to the other during winter :) "
Once you have your "enhanced road" you use it.....
You can run a dirt bike in your back yard, what's the difference in running run a road bike?

[Chaser]

Worst case scenario is that you get it approved as a "private road upgrade" and things go well until the council gets wind of it and closes it down - then you are out of pocket bigtime! To make it financially viable, you need paying customers, that then becomes a legal nightmare if anyone injured themselves there. Great idea but the odds are against you.

[DanOz]

Worst case scenario is that you get it approved as a "private road upgrade" and things go well until the council gets wind of it and closes it down - then you are out of pocket bigtime! To make it financially viable, you need paying customers, that then becomes a legal nightmare if anyone injured themselves there. Great idea but the odds are against you.

You're right, council might close it down later.... this is true.

But there's no problem as far as customers is concerned as there's no customers in this idea.... PRIVATE USE ONLY (for the 10 owners of the place)..... no financial breakeven to be met, the investment is AT LOSS since the beginning.....
How these guys who have a Private Track in their backyard get away with it then?

[Captain]

I'd love to be in, but I see a number of issues;

1. The numbers. For the life of me I cannot see 1km of track being laid for $ 60,000. I would guess it would cost ten times as much.
2. You will need to have an ambulance in attendance at each meet. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd want one there.
3. Commercial v private. I'd opt for commercial, but on the same membership basis for funding. That way with any luck you can actually make it pay for itself, so that the members get to ride for free. With some skill you might even make a profit from it (for the members).
4. I'd also make it a commercial DA. There cannot be too much development in the area, so it's possible the Council would welcome to boost to the local economy. If it's very rural, and the land useless for anything else then there might not be so much objection from the locals.
5. Why would we ride there? We have EC, and OP (for a while at least), plus other tracks around Australia.

[Marcus]

I wonder if having "club" on the council application would change anything.

Then maybe a 1 day club membership as opposed to entry.

One things for sure, add reverse direction to the design of the "dream"

That way you get to wear your tyres evenly without the PITA of removing them.

Now, who's round is it?

[Chaser]

If the venture isn't going to make money, what institution is going to lend you $500K? What means do you have to pay that sort of $$ back? It isn't as though the property price is going to sky rocket.

[SLAC]

1. Bank would not give ya money unless you had 300% in extra assets
2. DA would't meet EPA rules ang regs
3. You are in a world heritage listed area and national park(s)
4. hours of use be it private or for commercial gain wouldnt be approved
5. Location (cold / hot / snow)
6. EPA wouldnt approve it, even if the local council approved the develop, too much distruption to wildlife, people and general atmosphere
7. EPA fines start at $25,000 - $5 million
8. Insurances, professional liability, personal indeminity, public liability to say the least
9. WorkCover
10. Etc,Etc,Etc

Sorry to rain on the parade, but this is the reality, great idea and i hope that the secret track in the western area does go full steam ahead cause i am sure it will be used a lot.....

[DanOz]

1. Bank would not give ya money unless you had 300% in extra assets
Bank would give me the money. That's not the problem, if you can demostrate you can repay the money back.


2. DA would't meet EPA rules ang regs
3. You are in a world heritage listed area and national park(s)
4. hours of use be it private or for commercial gain wouldnt be approved


These are much more substantial problems.
But tell me why you can go around with a dirt bike in your "backyard" and nobody will hussle you, while as soon it's a road bike you become illegal?



great idea and i hope that the secret track in the western area does go full steam ahead cause i am sure it will be used a lot.....
Don't worry, it's clear that it won't happen, too complicated :ayyy: ..... I might end up doing it on my own, sooner or later, but at the beginning it would run on dirtbikes, then, once the neighbours are used to me being there, I'd put gradually some bits of bitumen here and there and turn into a Supermotards track...... :mod_smilie_rockwoot
Ciao

[Alex.]

This discussion is bad as it's putting seeds in my head as to what could be done.

Who owns Wakefield, what about asking if they want to sell?
Surely if there are a genuine number of serious people who would want to stump up some coin, a consortium could be put together. I'm not taking about a $600m facility like Shanghai, just something small.

[SLAC]

Settle people i have it on good info theres a track that is in the planning stage at a coucil aready, and its currently a established car track in NSW that just needs to be changed and added to suit specifically bikes!!!!! yeeee haaaa

As for the previous about dirt bikes etc. You can control certain pollution dust (water just like appin) the noise has set times, with set DB'S, and as for using your bike in the back yard, you can providing it meets the EPA laws and local council.

Check the regs on noise at any race meet they have DBA of how much you can make and how long it can run. OP for example not after 5pm without a permit...

[Alex.]

Settle people i have it on good info theres a track that is in the planning stage at a coucil aready, and its currently a established car track in NSW that just needs to be changed and added to suit specifically bikes!!!!! yeeee haaaa

Can you give us a little more information?

[the rocketeer]

Still this would be an awsome idea...
hypothetical: lets say i build a house on a property, except its about 1-2km away from the nearest public road. Now i build a road that leads to the house, and everyday my friends and i race up and down the stretch. Would i be breaking any DA/EPA/other legal-mumbo-jumbo law??

[lilninja]

Settle people i have it on good info theres a track that is in the planning stage at a coucil aready, and its currently a established car track in NSW that just needs to be changed and added to suit specifically bikes!!!!! yeeee haaaa

which council?

[SLAC]

it has recently held a BIG race meet.. (telavised). i hace been speaking to town planners..... so i didnt make it up either!!! Although even if i did, it still would be awesome! :ayyy:

[Captain]

Still this would be an awsome idea...
hypothetical: lets say i build a house on a property, except its about 1-2km away from the nearest public road. Now i build a road that leads to the house, and everyday my friends and i race up and down the stretch. Would i be breaking any DA/EPA/other legal-mumbo-jumbo law??

Theoretically speaking, I believe that you need approval for certain activities, even on private land. If the council believes you are engaging in such an activity (eg motorsports), then that's that. That there happens to be a house at one end is somewhat irrelevant.

[the rocketeer]

Theoretically speaking, I believe that you need approval for certain activities, even on private land. If the council believes you are engaging in such an activity (eg motorsports), then that's that. That there happens to be a house at one end is somewhat irrelevant.

How would one determine if an approval is needed? for example: a few mates exploring the land on bikes, or testing/playing with their "toys"...

i know this is abit tongue-in-cheek but i've even made up a quick "track"... lets say you were going out and realised "oh crap, i forgot my wallet!" so you race back home (follow the arrows in the pic). then as you ride pass the pits... i mean "house" you find that your wallet is in your pants, so you furthermore push the bike to "make up for lost time". THEN think, "did i leave the front porch light on??" and head back to check... and so on and so on...

http://www.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/609/6090575c1a9656a4e18b19ac0f16cdf56e2a78.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com)

Getting back to a more serious note; if you were going dirtbike riding with a few mates, do you need approval? or if you were working the land and need to operate motorbikes, similar approval? My thought and attitude towards all legality in this matter would be: its a private road, with a few mates getting together and mucking around... you can't "bend" a law that prevents people from using their own road...?

EDIT: i forgot to add that the reason why there are so many bends in the road (as apposed to a straight line) was because there were hills and trees that were (strategicly) placed, and the road was built around them to "protect the environment" ...i hope this is believable

[triumph]

i think if it is your land you should be able to do what you like with it.

[Alex.]

How would one determine if an approval is needed? for example: a few mates exploring the land on bikes, or testing/playing with their "toys"...

i know this is abit tongue-in-cheek but i've even made up a quick "track"... lets say you were going out and realised "oh crap, i forgot my wallet!" so you race back home (follow the arrows in the pic). then as you ride pass the pits... i mean "house" you find that your wallet is in your pants, so you furthermore push the bike to "make up for lost time". THEN think, "did i leave the front porch light on??" and head back to check... and so on and so on...

http://www.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/609/6090575c1a9656a4e18b19ac0f16cdf56e2a78.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com)

Getting back to a more serious note; if you were going dirtbike riding with a few mates, do you need approval? or if you were working the land and need to operate motorbikes, similar approval? My thought and attitude towards all legality in this matter would be: its a private road, with a few mates getting together and mucking around... you can't "bend" a law that prevents people from using their own road...?

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Love the plans!

[DanOz]

How would one determine if an approval is needed? for example: a few mates exploring the land on bikes, or testing/playing with their "toys"...

i know this is abit tongue-in-cheek but i've even made up a quick "track"... lets say you were going out and realised "oh crap, i forgot my wallet!" so you race back home (follow the arrows in the pic). then as you ride pass the pits... i mean "house" you find that your wallet is in your pants, so you furthermore push the bike to "make up for lost time". THEN think, "did i leave the front porch light on??" and head back to check... and so on and so on...

http://www.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/609/6090575c1a9656a4e18b19ac0f16cdf56e2a78.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com)




OK, we're moving forward :ayyy: :ayyy: :ayyy: :ayyy: :ayyy:
That's the way :) :)

Guys this is exactly what I meant in my posts when I was saying "PURE PRIVATE USE" on private land.........
Heaps of people run dirtbikes on their properties and never heard of anyone being shot down by a neighbour or by the local police :mod_smilie_rockwoot
Ciao

[Alex.]

I can't stop laughing at the picture - he even put a lake in there!

[SLAC]

ha ha ha, thats gold!! love the plan....

Couldnt agree more about "its mine so piss off".

Maybe the best person to ask about dirt tracks on properties would be Terry Hay (shock treatment). He has a specfic track for testing his bikes on his property, he also runs a buisness from there to. The local council would be Penrith, so if your fair dinkum, check your local coucil reg's.

By the way i hope that some rich dude makes a track that can be used by all. But the politics that goes with that terriotry are fucked, its bad enough trying to get a skills centre in Sydney for training of apprentices!!

[Captain]

The red tape is probably not such a hurdle, it's just that it's an area many of us are not familiar with. I mean developers have to do thorugh the process all the time, often with a little legal action thrown in just for luck.

It's just a procedure, it wouldn't worry me.

Otherwise it's purely speculation as to what might / might not be permitted. Personally I think the council (depending on which) is probably pro-development, there's probably a shortage of work out there so they'd welcome anything that's not excessively damaging to the environment. A bit ot bitumen on a paddock is not too bad.

Certainly I think you'd have more success learning the procedure, than try to play games with the council (no it's not a race track mr ranger, we're just going is circles cause we're lost...).

That is some drawing :clap: :ayyy: :lmao:

PS. Does anyone know a town planner? That's what they're there for.... they'd know.
PPS. I can't remember what else I was going to say

[the rocketeer]

I'm getting too much appraisal for my hard work! i might need to get the drawings copyrighted before someone snatches them and builds a replica!

but yea, its one thing to build a cheap bitumen road... but to build a solid paved race worthy road is another...

[wharn-os]

I love the idea...... but, I can't believe you guys haven't heard of people having neighbours complain about people riding dirtbikes on their own property.

Even if it's not outside noise-restricted hours. Can't remember the wording but there is a statute concerning noise regulations, which is , worked into the approval to build a house. When your DA is sent to neighbouring properties, it contains the scope of work and the noise and effect it will have.

Also, there is a specific council zoning for motorsport.... I mean WSID still gets complaints..... So if they so much as got a wiff of what you were up to.... even if you were running at a loss...

If you jump over to www.ausrotary.com, there was a thread on there about a private drift track or something, and there are some town planners and even solicitors on the site who offered their 2cents worth...

[lilninja]

it has recently held a BIG race meet.. (telavised). i hace been speaking to town planners..... so i didnt make it up either!!! Although even if i did, it still would be awesome! :ayyy:

or you could just tell us!!!!!!!!!!!!! what track are we talking?

[jasonbw]

what track are we talking?

Bath.. bath... bathing in the warmth of the sun
the mountain reaches to the endless clouds
an elbow'd forest, a drooping straight
becomes the occasional rats meet.

hic

[SLAC]

I could tell you but i would have to kill you..... But its sounds like jsaon is on to a good thing! Has mountains and straights, in stead of turning left it turns right

[Mr Bones]

Well I too love the pic. I also think the idea has merit But I think it will take more funds than thought in the first few pages of this thread. There are two ways to go about it Private or make it a club place, like for mentioned have monthly club meetings and the like. Or just ten or fifteen private owners. Liability insurance is gonna be the thing that kills this idea. I think a bit of looking into it still wouldn't hurt cause every one these days says nup to hard. But who wouldn't want a private race track. I think a bit or digging around would'nt hurt I used to no a town planner i'll try to get in touch with him again. right now im late to work gotta fly.

[jasonbw]

its sounds like jason is on to a good thing!

Alcohol ???

[Captain]

Liability insurance is a tricky one. I would hope there's a special provision for motor sports, given it's inherently dangerous nature.

Quite frankly, following the CSS I could not believe that such a thing could even exist, in these times of rules, liability and litigation. Councils are removing playgrounds because they're too dangerous, we're all swamped in OH&S paperwork and then they let you jump on a high powered bike and do 240km/h on a track. They'll even rent you one :confused1:

[Alex.]

I could tell you but i would have to kill you..... But its sounds like jsaon is on to a good thing! Has mountains and straights, in stead of turning left it turns right

They'll need to make some serious changes to get it suitable for bikes...:)

[seraph]

I haven't laughed so much reading a thread in ages :D

Dream big, eh? I wonder......... ;) -J.

[SLAC]

I belief they are going to make a total new one that turns right after the straight not left and up the hill

[Alex.]

I belief they are going to make a total new one that turns right after the straight not left and up the hill

Interesing...

[lilninja]

bathurst? your kidding that would be awsome! although rather far away! but shit happens Ill just have to leave home earlier!

[Alex.]

bathurst? your kidding that would be awsome! although rather far away! but shit happens Ill just have to leave home earlier!

:) Yeah, an early wake-up that's for sure.

[SLAC]

The land is already owned and they dont get to use the facilities enough that are there, so there is a push for the intro of a purpose built road and dirt track. I believe that if need be could hold international events. But at this stage they are aiming at domestic only, and by 2009-10. Fingers crossed...

man it took you guy & girls long enough to work it out!!! :ayyy: :ayyy:
Yeaaaah haaaa :ninja:

[msmola2002]

A very quick google found these 2 link,s but not a hell of a lot of info, bar 3km long and using the pit straight or somesuch.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2005/07/08/1409777.htm
http://www.kartingaustralia.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?p=49540&highlight=&sid=d4bc2dc713c3265d1019fe62004b9cfd