Bike wont start.. modified starter switch

[Kris]

So, im using the 07 1krr kill/starter on my 05 600RR

I followed http://cbrworld.net/forums/thread/258009.aspx with my handy electrical mate and we checked the layout 3 times. The right pins in the plug are connected to the right colors

The bike goes to start (starter starts up) but the bike wont start...

Any ideas?? :(

[Mr.Ed]

I may (and possibly am) be talking out of arse here... but it does sound a lot like when I tried to start my bike without plugging the instruments. Could that be the case with you?

[Kris]

Naa, instruments are in/never removed... Lights come on the dash, neutral light etc.. My feeling is the 1krr kill isn't working, so its thinking the kill is on.. not allowing it to fire..

[jasonbw]

Too late to plug the old one back in?

You sure you never unplugged the green connector behind the headlights? the Tilt sensor. That is the symptom of it... also the symptom of HISS and a bad kill switch. Continuity test on the switch show its actually switching I presume?

[Mr.Ed]

Naa, instruments are in/never removed... Lights come on the dash, neutral light etc.. My feeling is the 1krr kill isn't working, so its thinking the kill is on.. not allowing it to fire..
Yeah but would the bike even attempt to start if it the kill switch was on!??! I mean does the engine turn and doesn't start or it doesn't even turn and flash the headlight?

Edit: It's a track bike, of course it doesn't flash the headlight!:dohsmiley::dohsmiley::dohsmiley:

[Kris]

theres no lights whatso ever,, no headlights..

its a track bike

jason, yep too late. Chopped the old plug off. Had to cause the HRC throttle means the throttle tube has its own housing.. where was the 05 60rr has the starter/throttle tube in the same switch housing..

Like this:

http://cbrworld.net/photos/accessories_and_equipment/images/248894/500x375.aspx

[seals]

Yeah but would the bike even attempt to start if it the kill switch was on!??! I mean does the engine turn and doesn't start or it doesn't even turn and flash the headlight?

Edit: It's a track bike, of course it doesn't flash the headlight!:dohsmiley::dohsmiley::dohsmiley:

According to this comment at the end of the post from the URL you provided - the answer is yes... (unless the 1krr is diff again to the RC-51)

Its not a perfect mapping from the RC-51 to the 600RR but its close enough. Here is the only difference I've found (so far). If you have the kill switch on and try to start the bike with the stock start/kill switch on the 600RR, the starter does not engage. Try the same thing with the RC-51 kill switch, the starter will attempt to start the bike but the bike won't start because the ignition has been killed. So as long as you're mindful of this, this should not pose any problems.

[Kris]

seals, right which is exactly how the 1krr works?

this is NOT a RC-51 switch, its a 07 1000RR switch...

[Kris]

Certainly did ;) bike is in neutral with the stand up

[zRoYz]

The link you posted is for a RC51 (SP1/SP2) switch you can't take for granted to is same as a CBR1000RR.

You need wiring diagram for your model 600 & one for CBR1000RR switch your using then all will become clear.

[LittleBear]

I'm only going off this shit my bike puts me through.
Does the bike have an relay switches (like under the seat) that click when you turn on the ignition?
If so it's a curcit problem, so it may be (if you got em) one of the cut off switches like a stand or clutch relay or a wire that keeps the curcit open. If all else fails some WD/40 works.

[Kris]

Roy, yep you're 100% right. I was told the 07 1krr is the same as the RC51 switch.. Seems not

Anyone got the 07 manual?

[*Oggy*]

Since youve had the fairings off...

Question 1... Have you had the bike started since the crash ?

Question 2... Where is level sensor mounted ? have you moved this at all ??

[Captain]

Roy, yep you're 100% right. I was told the 07 1krr is the same as the RC51 switch.. Seems not

Anyone got the 07 manual?
For the 600rr? Yes, I have one
Send me a PM with your email, and I'll shoot it across to you.

[Kris]

Oggy, yes it was ridden back.

Lever sensor? no idea :(

Sorry Julian, 07 manual for the 1krr

[*Oggy*]

level sensor / tilt sensor... Just thats what comes to mind... I took of my road fairings off and then when i went to start it... all lights came on, it turned over really well..but just didnt start.. Its black with a BIG arrow on it that should be pointing upwards..... anyway..below is the 04/05 wiring diagram... the kill switch physically looks the same as the 05 I have.... I havnt an 07 diagram so cant say for sure



http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n237/oggydownunder/05switches.jpg

[Captain]

Is this the diagram?

http://home.comcast.net/~downforce137/08%20CBR1000RR%20WIRING.pdf

From 1000rr.net:

http://www.1000rr.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50892
http://cbr.deathace.net/gfx/2008_uk_wd.jpg

There's also a link to the Service Manual (haven't tried if they work) http://www.1000rr.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57865

[Kris]

THanks guys, when Trev comes over we'll take a look and see what is going on.. i suspect what roy has mentioned is right..

So, to start it accoridng to 04/05 wiring diagram, 2 wires for clutch and 2 wires for the switch?

Julian, they are 08 specfic... but i did find those ones..

[Captain]

My bad (again!) ... I got it confused with the 600RR ... the 07 and 08 being the same ...
I'll just go back into my hole now.

[Kris]

So, ive found the diagrams etc. I'm told the 1krr ONLY requires the black/red wire swapped inside the connector with the black wire. All other cables match up color for color..

Anyone near Marrickville with a soldering iron that can do this?? :)

[*Oggy*]

So, ive found the diagrams etc. I'm told the 1krr ONLY requires the black/red wire swapped inside the connector with the black wire. All other cables match up color for color..

Anyone near Marrickville with a soldering iron that can do this?? :)

Can't you stick a paper clip inside the connector and just swap over the contact spades ????

[zRoYz]

Just for info the two switches mounted on levers will not stop engine from starting if not connected but the clutch side needs to have gearbox in neutral if not connected to start engine.

Brake lever micro switch only operates brake light on/off

Clutch lever micro switch is there so you can start bike in gear with clutch pulled in if bike in gear. For memory there are some bikes that need you to pull clutch in to start engine even if gearbox in neutral but not Honda's.

[Kris]

Oggy, the solder needs to be removed as i tihnk alot of cables are wrong.. so it needs to be redone :(

[*Oggy*]

Damn nearly died of heat exhaustion riding over to Marickville last night to get my bag off Pan.....

Bunnings is your saviour....

[Kris]

Okie dokie :D

Ive no idea how to solder/heatshrink lol!

[stetto]

Hold the soldering iron below the wire and solder above the wire both touching the wire, the flux will pull it through when its hot enough. Heatshrink just slide it over and use a lighter to shrink it, u could just use electrical tape too

[Linden]

Heatshrink just slide it over and use a lighter to shrink it

Remember Heatshrink on wire (pushed away from joint) before soldering - real hard to add later :) :( :crysmiley:

Linden who nearly failed ElecEng 1 due to crap soldering - glad computers don't need any of that stuff anymore

EDIT - and before you solder it just twist it together and try it!!! ALSO wire cutters are great unsolders just apply either sid of joint

[Kris]

So, we have double checked the pins/wires and its all right.

Bike cranks, wont start

Stand is up, clutch is in, tilt sensor looks plugged in/never changed

Tried both kill switch postions

anyone know why it wont start?

[Johnny]

Is it getting spark ?

[SIX36]

Can u temp hot wire the old starter back up and see if she starts?

[Pict]

Did you bump / move the BAS up in the nose ?

[Kris]

spark? no idea, how do i check :D

Mr848 may need ot try that..

[Kris]

pict, is that the huge sensor thingie with a arrow kinda on it? if so, no.. even disconncted the stand cable..

[Kris]

Updated info to see if someone can help

Switch has been checked with a multimeter and verified as fine, checked all the functions and wiring - 3 or 4 times. Its fine

Previous history & info

Removed airbox, ecm cables, throttle, old switching housing
Installed HRC Quick throttle
Side stand connected/working
Not changed/touched the tilt sensor
Bike has fuel, fully charged
Bike was working fine prior to installing HRC throttle

Issues:

Starter motor is working fine
dash lights, hiss all fine, hiss is disabled when key turned on
bike will NOT start
starter button on new switch allows the bike to crank

Any ideas? Was working fine prior to install of hrc throttle and new switch housing.

Verified the right cables are in the right spots by checking a 07 1000RR wiring diagram with the 05 600RR diagram.

[Johnny]

well your either not getting spark, or fuel.

Spark, remove spark plug lead, place against something metal, turn bike over and you should see a spark jump from lead to object..
No spark, then double check, cause somethings obviously stopping it..

[Pict]

Hrm.

Does the fuel pump prime?

[Kris]

Pict, how can I tell? when i turn the ignition on right?

JOhnny, crap ok, ill check this tomorrow

[Kris]

When i turn the key on, i hear a noise inside the instrument cluster but no engine noises.

[Pict]

kill switch set to off
key set to normal 'on' position
hit the kill switch to 'ON'

there should be 5 or so seconds of whiney noise from the tank.

IF that happens, your BAS is working and can be ruled out, your kill switch is working and can be rulled out, and your fuel pump is working and can be ruled out.



Are you getting any FI codes?

Kill switch set to ON
Key turn key from OFF to ON
The FI light on the dash should either light up, flash, or not appear.


It is also entirely likely the bike is flooded. crank the bike with the throttle all the way open. if it is flooded the bike might cough and splutter a few times and eventually blow out some black smoke.



First thing to check tho is if it primes or not.

[Pict]

Hrm, im also curious to see what FI codes you may be getting.

[Kris]

Pict, bike isn't priming. Did as you said, no noises at all from the tank...

No FI codes on the dash

[Pict]

Hrmmmmmmmmmmm

FI light on solid or not at all ?

[Kris]

not at all.

[Kris]

Must be a loose wire huh?

[Pict]

FI code 0 - bank angle sensor, ECM, PGM-FI fuse.

easiest things first.

-check all injector plugs, ECU plugs
-check fuses
-swap highbeam relay for fuel pump relay
-disable BAS

[Kris]

Gotta sleep, pict drop me a email if you can think of anything :(

Looks like i need to take it to a mech - cunt of a bike.

Im not really technically minded with this disabling bas etc etc... so ive got no idea what to do there but ill check connections tomorrow.

[Pict]

There are still a few things we can check.

I know how youre feeling right now, it SUCKS.

Code 0 definitely narrows it down :ayyy:

[zRoYz]

You can have FI warning & bike will still prime fuel pump which isn't happening.

The one thing I can think of without looking at both wiring diagrams is you have missed a connection feed to a circuit that was feed from parts you removed or it might just be a blown fuse as the bank angle sensor has a fused feed from memory (did you disconnect battery when doing wiring if you didn't inspect all the fuses).

Make sure you have the correct feeds going into the bank angle sensor as from memory is the only device that locks bike from starting but still allows bike to crank.

Also when lifting tank to stuff around make sure fuel pump plug isn't dislodged.

My money is on you have a simple blown fuse.

[Kris]

Thanks guys, ok, ill check the fuses. Where are they? Ill lift the tank and inspect, maybe something under there isn't right...

[jasonbw]

Kris, take 5 min to read all the responses to the same issue here:
http://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=139955

As usual Roy is likely on the money... but this case I've linked was actually a flooded engine!

[Kris]

hey Jason, yep see that post :) ive printed out a tonne of posts but a flooded engine cant be the cause of the fuel pump not priming.. There must be a wire/sensor/ground wire or fuse dead...

So im going to go over it tonight with a fine tooth comb. I cant tell you how frustrated I am with this bike! I have a bit of help coming over tonight from Madaz so hopefully she can help me with the bike... I've got no clue!

[jasonbw]

Cool, good luck tonight, did you check those fuses though? That's something you can do yourself.

[Pict]

You'll get it running Kris, have faith ;)

When are you on it next?

[Kris]

Saturday mate.. faith? im past that. I need a miracle.

Fuses? no idea where they are jason..

[Pict]

left hand side of bike, approx same location as the tool box carrier on the right hand side.

[Pict]

we also need to check if the fuel pump relay is actuating or not, but I doubt that it would be given the FI code you are getting.

[jasonbw]

Fuses? no idea where they are jason..

That link I had described the main one to look at, just behind the battery from memory, read up Kris.

[Kris]

Ok ill look when im home..

FI code? i dont get any codes.. FI light doesnt come on

[Pict]

Yep, which is code 0.

[Kris]

ok, fuses are ok except one. Indicator/lights.. thats blown maybe cause not connected? everything other wire looks secure..

[Kris]

Anyone know if this is the tip sensor??

http://members.iinet.net.au/~kelandkris/tip.jpg

[slow bro]

yes

[WET4URacing]

i'm scared.

[Kris]

Come help then wetty! fark

Thanks Noel ;)

How can i check the fuel pump is getting power?

[WET4URacing]

finally u ask. bring it to wenty on wkend and i'll be more than happy

[Johnny]

ARE... YOU ....GETTING... SPARK :dohsmiley: :lmao:

[slow bro]

My tip sensor is mounted flat, yours is up & down. One of us has it round the wrong way??????

[Kris]

Wetty, i need it working by tomorrow night for sat :(

So, fuel pump not working 100%. We just jumpered it and it primes

Theres no power to the relay for the pump, what gives the power to the relay on this bike? Is it the starter/kill switch or ecu? These may be dumb questions :( im trying to learn

Noel, its always been like that?

[Pict]

Yeah i dont think your BAS is right.... lemme go check mine...

[Kris]

I checked it, its right, the up arrow is on the other side :D

Def no power or signal or whatever to the fuel pump...

[Pict]

nah thats right, same as stock anyway. I thought the dome was to point up.

try jumpering the BAS. at least that way you can rule it out. there are guides to this on 600rr.net

[Johnny]

faulty kill switch dude, or just not completing circuit when placed on on, fuel pump will not prime, engine will kick over but not letting any SPARK ( :dohsmiley: ) through or priming fuel pump...

try solid wiring it for a sec, then give it a shot .

[Pict]

wouldnt faulty kill switch prevent it from cranking ?

just a guess, i dont know the details on the kill switch set up.

[Kris]

johnny, what do you mean?

[Johnny]

Will if faulty wiring or not completing circuit properly :confused1:

[Pict]

true true.

crack out the multimeter, see if you are getting anything coming out of the killswitch when swtiching from off to on.

if you are, buggered ECU or BAS.
if you arent, buggered killswitch.

[Johnny]

Bingo, thank you.


ofcourse checking for spark wouldve lead to this long ago, but anyways :)

[Kris]

how can we test the ecu or disconnect the bas ??

[zRoYz]

Bingo, thank you.


ofcourse checking for spark wouldve lead to this long ago, but anyways :)

Mate sorry but that is wrong, what is the point of checking for spark if the fuel pump doesn't even prime, to fault find trace back fuel pump circuit as a start.

People are making this more complicated than it is but it is almost imposable to fault find something on the internet.

Few question:
Did bike run after crash?
If yes to above, did bike run before you started working on it changing out switch gear?
If yes to both questions your answer is something you have done is wrong or caused damage to a component.

[Johnny]

Will the fuel pump prime when killswitch not letting through power ?

Mine dont ( off to double check) :confused1:

[Johnny]

stand corrected, it does.. :o

[Kris]

OK, kill switch has current when connected so its working.

Roy, yes bike started fine after crashed

Did it start after my work, no

Fuel pump does not prime in any circumstance unless power direct from battery

Roy, any suggestions to trace the fuel pump circuit?

[zRoYz]

Roy, any suggestions to trace the fuel pump circuit?

Yes use circuit diagram for 600 to track back feeds.

You said there was a blown fuse lights? I only have the 03 wiring diagram which has a fuse for "turn signal engine stop horn" have you tried just replacing that fuse. Also the fuse mounted near battery have you inspected?

There are so many circuits it is imposable to know without being able to test but you have starter switch (this seems to be ok due to starter motor turning over), engine stop relay. fuel cut relay. Then you have the other safety circuits like bank angle sensor.

The fault is something you have done & without being condescending a av electrician has no idea how to fault find circuits when allot of the switching is through the neutral link. This is reason electricians aren't auto electricians so your friend saying something works could be wrong.

[LAW]

new throttle cables are messing with your idle opening?

Do bikes have a crank angle sensor like cars? (you had engine cases apart didnt' you?)

you have fuel. yes? fuel lines aren't air locked?

[Kris]

Roy, my mate has checked the wires into the ecu etc, and the relay with the multimeter theres power. He traced the wires form the relay into the ecu harness

The blown fuse you speak of is now replaced, and the main 30A fuse is fine (thats the starter fuse)

Thats ok, i know its difficult :(

Anyway to test the ECU? Is that what sends the signal to the pump to switch on?

[RUSSELL]

re do every thing you have done. right back to the start. test. start again testing as you go

[Kris]

roy, do you know how we can test the signal out of the ecu? cause it appears that the ecu is not sending the signal to the relay to complete the circuit and start the pump....

we have chgecked all other circuits, its fine

[Johnny]

re do every thing you have done. right back to the start. test. start again testing as you go

yup, thinking go back to this bit in particular, the chopping of the plug, and rewiring of.


. Chopped the old plug off. Had to cause the HRC throttle means the throttle tube has its own housing.. where was the 05 60rr has the starter/throttle tube in the same switch housing..

Like this:

http://cbrworld.net/photos/accessories_and_equipment/images/248894/500x375.aspx



giving advice on the net is :dohsmiley:
no-one who can shoot out to help him out ??
Kris, take up wetty's offer mate if no-luck..

sorry mate, you must be frustrated as..

[Kris]

:(

[Kris]

its beyond the joke... well i cant take wettys offer because its too late.... :( trying to get it set for sat...

wetty, do you know if anyone has a replacement ecu , fucked if i know what else it could be

[Marshy]

Skive off work tomorrow and get out to Wetty's place asap.

[Kris]

cant mate, not working a day means no pay (heaps) as im a contractor... ive been working on this for 5 straight nights :( tiull 12 every night

i fucking HATE bikes

[LAW]

surely it can only be one of the things you fucked with?

wiring and plugs. that's all it can be. strip and rewire?

[Johnny]

fuck ya, pm me addy and I'll come pick it up and drop off to wetty for you..

[zRoYz]

It wont be the ECU I'm 99% sure it is the wiring you have done or the CBR1000RR switch isn't compatible. I can't test because I'm not there but the CBR1000RR switch in diagram has 6 wires or inputs with one feed either looped internally in switch or a wire loop. The 600 switch only shows 5 wires but does have a internal switching point my diagram doesn't show connection.

From memory there is the main 30amp fuse on starter switch but there is also another fuse from battery in that area think 20amp.

I would put old switch back on to prove bike starts, look at connections when bike running to see what wires supply 12vdc or neutral with bike running, do the same inspection bike off. Then you have a base to work off that replacement switch needs to supply, if it can't supply same configuration as 600 switch then there is your answer. Doing it that way will save all the stuffing around thinking it's ecu etc, if bike doesn't start with old switch gear then you have some other problem you may have caused during rewire. YOU NEED TO PUT BIKE BACK TO STOCK OR BACK TO THE BASE YOU KNOW WORKED

[Johnny]

Nice Roy..

OK, just a thought in the back of my mind..

Despite minimul damage to bike from off, and being a relatively low speed off, it did slide from exit of nine all the way into tyre wall/rubber, big slide in the wet, could it be possible, BAS or one or the other cencors worked the one time and then let go for some reason or other later ?

[Kris]

yeah we tried that... put the 600 switch back on with the same result; it doesnt start :(

[*Oggy*]

You realise in the photo the switch is in the off position !!!

[Kris]

its ok oggy, we've tried it in numerous positions

Roy, tried switch gear the original and it fails. The cbr1k and 6rr switch is 99% identical, its just you reverse some headlight wires which we did. The install of the 1krr switch is VERY well documented on 600rr.net - we followed and verified to a tee

I installed woodcraft covers and the hrc throttle kit, thats it. The ecu was disconnected along with the airbox sensor, but all plugged back in

Just about to pull out airbox and look underneath see if anything is amiss

johnny is a champion with his offer...thanks mate!!

[Johnny]

more than welcome Kris , its pissing me off to now not knowing what it is :lmao:

[Kris]

FUCK YES HHAHAHAHAHA

We defeated it :D

I decided we should pull out the airbox to check underneath and guess what we found? the TPS sensor blue wire had become squashed beneath the airbox and was ground out !!!

Fixed that, rebolted, started FIRST POP! LOL

I have a smile on my face 10ft wide. Thanks to everyone, learnt ALOT from this process

The bike is fixed ;)
:mod_smilie_rockwoot :mod_smilie_rockwoot :mod_smilie_rockwoot :mod_smilie_rockwoot :mod_smilie_rockwoot :mod_smilie_rockwoot :mod_smilie_rockwoot :mod_smilie_rockwoot :mod_smilie_rockwoot

[James]

Persistance wins :clap::clap::clap:

[wade193]

Im exhausted just reading about it. Glad you got it sorted, victory feels good haha

[SIX36]

Sweet mate, with 24hrs to spare before EC...

[Kris]

Im exhausted too ;) Learnt so much about the bike - great exercise. Just never again!

[Pict]

yay :ayyy:

[Johnny]

Can I be the first to say...... YOU IDIOT :lmao:


Joking mate, well done :clap:




:lmao: all the same though :lmao:

[Kris]

Johnny, my call was for you to hear it running :D lol

[WET4URacing]

sweet. now back to the deck chair

[Marshy]

Well done Kris!! Glad you got it sorted mate, and just in time too... :clap::clap::clap::dancesmiley::dancesmiley:

[Kris]

yup! now need ot instlal grips, tighten clip ons, adjust and put fairing son :)

[*Oggy*]

Congrats.... Electrics are always fun...

For curiosity.... How did the wire get trapped... did you go playing around in that area and trap it whilst doing the throttle cable ?

[Kris]

Oggy, when the airbox was installed over the throttle bodies...

[Johnny]

Johnny, my call was for you to hear it running :D lol

lol, sorry mate, missed the call and was too late to return it so logged on asap (12ish) to see what was happening.. good news awaited..

I'll hear it tomorrow :)